30 grams of Creatine/Day. Is it Safe?

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    30 grams of Creatine/Day. Is it Safe?


    Hi Patrick,

    Here is an interesting article, worth a look if you haven't seen it before.

    Creatine: How Much Should You Be Taking? | Arnold Schwarzenegger


    Basically, it advocates taking around 30 grams a day and it is not a sales piece (I did not see a link to or any mention of a product; besides, it is suggesting people take the mono-hydrate version, which is the cheapest anyway).

    My question is, would it be safe to take this much?
    Whether it would really do something beneficial is, in my opinion, a comparatively less important issue. Today Creatine Monoh. is so cheap that even taking 30 grams a day for a month is a very affordable experiment and worth a shot, just for the heck of it. Not a good idea, however, if it is potentially unsafe (obviously unsafe, if you have preexisting kidney issues; bit how about for those with no kidney issues... safe for them?)

    Thanks

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    It's safe, but the MOA of creatine monohydrate is very well elucidated. There is no benefit, period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub7 View Post
    Hi Patrick,

    Here is an interesting article, worth a look if you haven't seen it before.

    Creatine: How Much Should You Be Taking? | Arnold Schwarzenegger


    Basically, it advocates taking around 30 grams a day and it is not a sales piece (I did not see a link to or any mention of a product; besides, it is suggesting people take the mono-hydrate version, which is the cheapest anyway).

    My question is, would it be safe to take this much?
    Whether it would really do something beneficial is, in my opinion, a comparatively less important issue. Today Creatine Monoh. is so cheap that even taking 30 grams a day for a month is a very affordable experiment and worth a shot, just for the heck of it. Not a good idea, however, if it is potentially unsafe (obviously unsafe, if you have preexisting kidney issues; bit how about for those with no kidney issues... safe for them?)

    Thanks

    20 grams a day has been shown to be safe in studies. I dunno if 30 grams ever been tested
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    Thank you very much for your prompt reply Patrick
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    Why bother with 30g... What's the point when 1. Loading isn't need and 2. Creatine saturation can be attained by 3-5g a day. 30g sounds like a waste of money and kidney health , if you aren't we'll hydrated throughout the day.
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    according to this study, 2g a day is inadequate to maintain creatine stores after loading

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12546637


    And I am not sure if 3-5g is adequate either now after reading this.

    Does that mean you need 30g a day? Doubtful. But I think this all needs to be re-explored, since the old recommendations are now in question
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    the comments below that article are intriguing. some people are swearing that upping the creatine to 30 grams a day gave way more than 5 grams a day.

    creatine mono is cheap, doesnt hurt to give it a try
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    Lol I take creatine when I remember. Ill forget days even weeks then remember to take it for a few months. Im actually more interested in a study I once saw that claimed it opened up the mtor pathways. If that is true I think long term supplimentaion should make a diffrence years down the road. Im always off and on creatine and leucine. Also anyone with more insight to weather or not it does activate mtor?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jstrong20 View Post
    Lol I take creatine when I remember. Ill forget days even weeks then remember to take it for a few months. Im actually more interested in a study I once saw that claimed it opened up the mtor pathways. If that is true I think long term supplimentaion should make a diffrence years down the road. Im always off and on creatine and leucine. Also anyone with more insight to weather or not it does activate mtor?
    i am the same way with creatine. sometimes i take it sometimes i dont. i certainly havent tried methodically taking large amounts since maybe early 90s. i may give it a whirl, however i fear the hershey squirts

    not only does it activate mtor it also suppresses myostatin. It probably has something to do with elevated ATP levels rather than a direct effect. Thats my guess but i could be way off
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the comments below that article are intriguing. some people are swearing that upping the creatine to 30 grams a day gave way more than 5 grams a day.

    creatine mono is cheap, doesnt hurt to give it a try
    Wouldnt surprise me. Now that you mention it... way back whe. Creatine 1st came out I would load it like it said on bottle. I think it was 5gs x5 doses a day. And it did seem I would get more but Ive always just chalked it up to being a newbie back then. That and figured I just got used to the feeling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    according to this study, 2g a day is inadequate to maintain creatine stores after loading

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12546637


    And I am not sure if 3-5g is adequate either now after reading this.

    Does that mean you need 30g a day? Doubtful. But I think this all needs to be re-explored, since the old recommendations are now in question
    wow interesting .... good find. If 2g isnt enough why would 3-5g be. Maybe 10g? I think we should do a study or just find one , but thats the less fun route.

    "This study provides definite evidence that prolonged creatine supplementation in humans does not increase muscle or whole-body oxidative capacity and, as such, does not influence substrate utilization or performance during endurance cycling exercise. In addition, our findings suggest that prolonged creatine ingestion induces an increase in fat-free mass"

    Well, good thing creatine mono is cheap. So maybe creatine cycling for 6 weeks is a better way to do this with loading for the first week then....
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    Re: 30 grams of Creatine/Day. Is it Safe?


    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    according to this study, 2g a day is inadequate to maintain creatine stores after loading

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12546637


    And I am not sure if 3-5g is adequate either now after reading this.

    Does that mean you need 30g a day? Doubtful. But I think this all needs to be re-explored, since the old recommendations are now in question
    There is a more recent study showing that there was no noted difference going +5g of creatine daily.

    I have no internet access (posting from phone) but I'll track it down and put it up. 5g is completely adequate in any recent studies I've found.

    That's the problem with ****ing science one study makes another erroneous and its a never ending cycle. However, anything I've seen in the past few years has shown creatine saturation being reached and maintained at 5g with no loading phase

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    There is a more recent study showing that there was no noted difference going +5g of creatine daily.

    I have no internet access (posting from phone) but I'll track it down and put it up. 5g is completely adequate in any recent studies I've found.

    That's the problem with ****ing science one study makes another erroneous and its a never ending cycle. However, anything I've seen in the past few years has shown creatine saturation being reached and maintained at 5g with no loading phase

    - Valdez
    scientific data is only as good as the methodology used. maybe they are missing something. For instance maybe muscle looks loaded with creatine but the supraphysiological levels in the body are causing some CNS potentiation or whatever
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    Re: 30 grams of Creatine/Day. Is it Safe?


    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    scientific data is only as good as the methodology used. maybe they are missing something. For instance maybe muscle looks loaded with creatine but the supraphysiological levels in the body are causing some CNS potentiation or whatever
    And I agree with that but we also have to pay attention to trending. There are numerous studies that show saturation to be reached and maintained with just 5g. If there are numerous studies showing 5g as sufficient, I'd lean more towards trusting the trending studies than one that recommends 30g. Especially one posted on an Arnold Schwarzenegger Web site

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    And I agree with that but we also have to pay attention to trending. There are numerous studies that show saturation to be reached and maintained with just 5g. If there are numerous studies showing 5g as sufficient, I'd lean more towards trusting the trending studies than one that recommends 30g. Especially one posted on an Arnold Schwarzenegger Web site

    - Valdez
    Still, it could be that there is an ergogenic effect with dosing high even though creatine stores are maximized. It is assumed that all the effects are due to creatine stored in the muscle, but have we thought to look at other possible effects of creatine outside the muscle (i.e. CNS potentiation?)
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    Here is something to make you think. The article below says that oral phosphocreatinine (the phosphorylated form of the creatine breakdown product creatinine) can effect the equilibrium of creatine phosphate in the muscle. Apparently it can spare creatine phosphate breakdown during exercise and decrease the acidification in the muscle during exercise

    Lets suppose that your muscles are loaded with creatine already and you are still taking 20 grams creatine a day. Alot of that creatine is probably converting to creatinine in your blood and some of that creatinine could be getting phosphorylated to phosphocreatinine. In that case you could be getting an extra boost from that 20 grams of creatine despite your muscles being loaded

    We had a product called cell fuel once that had phosphocreatinine and I put it in there based on this study

    In Vivo. 1996 Jul-Aug;10(4):429-33.
    Effect of oral phosphocreatinine on human skeletal muscle shown by in vivo 31P-NMR.

    Frassineti C, Iotti S, Lodi R, Zaniol P, Barbiroli B.
    Source

    Dipartimento di Scienze Biomediche, UniversitÓ di Modena, Italy.

    Abstract

    We used the non-invasive method of in vivo phosphorus magnetic resonance spectroscopy to investigate the effect of oral administration of phosphocreatinine on muscle energy metabolism during graded work and post-exercise recovery in humans. Phosphocreatinine administration results in a smaller depletion of phosphocreatine at high work rates accompanied by a smaller cytosolic acidification during work and recovery. Our findings suggest that oral phosphocreatinine increases the readily available energy for muscle contraction by interfering directly or indirectly with the reaction equilibria involving phosphocreatine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    Here is something to make you think. The article below says that oral phosphocreatinine (the phosphorylated form of the creatine breakdown product creatinine) can effect the equilibrium of creatine phosphate in the muscle. Apparently it can spare creatine phosphate breakdown during exercise and decrease the acidification in the muscle during exercise

    Lets suppose that your muscles are loaded with creatine already and you are still taking 20 grams creatine a day. Alot of that creatine is probably converting to creatinine in your blood and some of that creatinine could be getting phosphorylated to phosphocreatinine. In that case you could be getting an extra boost from that 20 grams of creatine despite your muscles being loaded

    We had a product called cell fuel once that had phosphocreatinine and I put it in there based on this study

    In Vivo. 1996 Jul-Aug;10(4):429-33.
    Effect of oral phosphocreatinine on human skeletal muscle shown by in vivo 31P-NMR.

    Frassineti C, Iotti S, Lodi R, Zaniol P, Barbiroli B.
    Source

    Dipartimento di Scienze Biomediche, UniversitÓ di Modena, Italy.

    Abstract

    We used the non-invasive method of in vivo phosphorus magnetic resonance spectroscopy to investigate the effect of oral administration of phosphocreatinine on muscle energy metabolism during graded work and post-exercise recovery in humans. Phosphocreatinine administration results in a smaller depletion of phosphocreatine at high work rates accompanied by a smaller cytosolic acidification during work and recovery. Our findings suggest that oral phosphocreatinine increases the readily available energy for muscle contraction by interfering directly or indirectly with the reaction equilibria involving phosphocreatine.

    While that's great in theory, CEE also cyclized to creatinine and was found to be less effective for performance than monohydrate. Could it be because IM phosphocreatine stores never hit saturation with CEE? Maybe.

    Or maybe sparing phosphocreatine is actually consistent with reduced performance, as you get less of a bridge between readily available ATP and glycolysis. In terms of metabolism, the phosphocreatine system is unique in that the reaction is reversible and unregulated; equilibrium thermodynamics determine the direction of the reaction. So artificially elevating one side of the reaction can definitely shift the reaction towards a phosphocreatine-sparing environment. Would this be conducive to exercise performance? For anaerobic weightlifting, it would probably actually hamper performance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    While that's great in theory, CEE also cyclized to creatinine and was found to be less effective for performance than monohydrate. Could it be because IM phosphocreatine stores never hit saturation with CEE? Maybe.

    Or maybe sparing phosphocreatine is actually consistent with reduced performance, as you get less of a bridge between readily available ATP and glycolysis. In terms of metabolism, the phosphocreatine system is unique in that the reaction is reversible and unregulated; equilibrium thermodynamics determine the direction of the reaction. So artificially elevating one side of the reaction can definitely shift the reaction towards a phosphocreatine-sparing environment. Would this be conducive to exercise performance? For anaerobic weightlifting, it would probably actually hamper performance.
    The smaller degree of cytosolic acidification in the PCn users suggests the possibility of an ergogenic effect of some sort.

    I have other papers showing increased muscle performance with phosphocreatinine, albeit they are not in athletes. If you do a pubmed search on phosphocreatinine and look at the older studies you will see some articles

    The study below is interesting although it just makes things more confusing

    J Biol Chem. 1985 Jun 25;260(12):7562-7.
    Phosphocreatinine, a high-energy phosphate in muscle, spontaneously forms phosphocreatine and creatinine under physiological conditions.

    Iyengar MR, Coleman DW, Butler TM.
    Abstract

    Phosphocreatinine undergoes the following spontaneous simultaneous reactions at pH 7.4 (0.02 M sodium phosphate and 120 mM KCl) and 38 degrees C. (Formula: see text) The first order rate constants are 0.046 h-1 (ka) and 0.048 h-1 (kb). There is a major effect of pH on the reactions such that at pH values higher than 7.4 phosphocreatine production predominates, while at pH values less than 7.4 creatinine is the major product. This along with titration data showing apparent pK values of about 3.0 and 7.5 for phosphocreatinine suggest that the dianionic form of phosphocreatinineis involved in the conversion to phosphocreatine, whereas the monoanionic form is exclusively converted to creatinine. Possible mechanisms to account for the reactivity of phosphocreatinine are discussed. Several lines of evidence suggest that the apparent Keq for phosphocreatine formation from phosphocreatinine is about 300 at pH 9.0 and about 70 at pH 7.0, and the delta G0' (pH 7.0) is-2.6 kcal/mol. The delta G0' (pH 7.0) for the hydrolysis of the phosphoryl bond in phosphocreatinine is-12.8 kcal/mol. The phosphocreatinine content of rabbit white skeletal muscle was measured to be 0.05 mumol/g, which is 0.4% of the phosphocreatine content. The in vitro experiments suggest that phosphohydrolysis ofphosphocreatinine can account for a creatinine formation equal to 0.5% of the phosphocreatine content/day. We conclude that it is likely that a substantial fraction of the in vivo creatinine production from phosphocreatine goes through the novel high energy phosphate, phosphocreatinine, as an intermediate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    While that's great in theory, CEE also cyclized to creatinine and was found to be less effective for performance than monohydrate. Could it be because IM phosphocreatine stores never hit saturation with CEE? Maybe. .
    I thought the CEE study showed no statistical difference in performance from CM? I could be wrong. When CEE first came around I tried it and it seemed to work really well. But then we were making it ourselves for a short time, and i got the freshest stuff possible. It tended to break down on the shelf, especially if not kept very dry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    It tended to break down on the shelf, especially if not kept very dry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I thought the CEE study showed no statistical difference in performance from CM? I could be wrong. When CEE first came around I tried it and it seemed to work really well. But then we were making it ourselves for a short time, and i got the freshest stuff possible. It tended to break down on the shelf, especially if not kept very dry
    Ah yes, you are right about that. Monohydrate did trend towards greater increases in strength if you look closely at the data. Statistical significance is dicey with things like supplements because the relative benefit is so minor to begin with.


    Less muscular acidification could be due to less reliance on glycolysis (and thus less lactate formation) during the typical glycolytic time-frame of exercise. This would be due to a broadening and flattening of the phosphocreatine metabolism vs. time curve due to the artificial shift in equilibrium.

    But then the second study you posted just screws everything up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Ah yes, you are right about that. Monohydrate did trend towards greater increases in strength if you look closely at the data. Statistical significance is dicey with things like supplements because the relative benefit is so minor to begin with.


    Less muscular acidification could be due to less reliance on glycolysis (and thus less lactate formation) during the typical glycolytic time-frame of exercise. This would be due to a broadening and flattening of the phosphocreatine metabolism vs. time curve due to the artificial shift in equilibrium.

    But then the second study you posted just screws everything up.

    I am pretty sure that creatine phosphate cannot enter muscle cell, but creatine can. Can phosphocreatinine enter? I dunno. Does it have to enter in order to exert its influence on creatine phosphate metabolism within the cell? dunno. Could it be free creatinine that actually is entering the cell?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    Here is something to make you think. The article below says that oral phosphocreatinine (the phosphorylated form of the creatine breakdown product creatinine) can effect the equilibrium of creatine phosphate in the muscle. Apparently it can spare creatine phosphate breakdown during exercise and decrease the acidification in the muscle during exercise

    Lets suppose that your muscles are loaded with creatine already and you are still taking 20 grams creatine a day. Alot of that creatine is probably converting to creatinine in your blood and some of that creatinine could be getting phosphorylated to phosphocreatinine. In that case you could be getting an extra boost from that 20 grams of creatine despite your muscles being loaded

    We had a product called cell fuel once that had phosphocreatinine and I put it in there based on this study

    In Vivo. 1996 Jul-Aug;10(4):429-33.
    Effect of oral phosphocreatinine on human skeletal muscle shown by in vivo 31P-NMR.

    Frassineti C, Iotti S, Lodi R, Zaniol P, Barbiroli B.
    Source

    Dipartimento di Scienze Biomediche, UniversitÓ di Modena, Italy.

    Abstract

    We used the non-invasive method of in vivo phosphorus magnetic resonance spectroscopy to investigate the effect of oral administration of phosphocreatinine on muscle energy metabolism during graded work and post-exercise recovery in humans. Phosphocreatinine administration results in a smaller depletion of phosphocreatine at high work rates accompanied by a smaller cytosolic acidification during work and recovery. Our findings suggest that oral phosphocreatinine increases the readily available energy for muscle contraction by interfering directly or indirectly with the reaction equilibria involving phosphocreatine.

    I have posted here before that cell fuel is still to date one of the best creatine products I ever took
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    Either way great discussion very interested
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I am pretty sure that creatine phosphate cannot enter muscle cell, but creatine can. Can phosphocreatinine enter? I dunno. Does it have to enter in order to exert its influence on creatine phosphate metabolism within the cell? dunno. Could it be free creatinine that actually is entering the cell?
    A phenomenon known as phosphate trapping occurs within the cell once creatine has passed, making exit impossible. I'd assume phosphocreatine is also excluded from Cr-T.

    To be honest, the whole creatine plasma membrane transport situation isn't that well understood. Our professors were quite confident that a transporter exists, but I've seen data showing that diffusion may play a [minor] role. This is, of course, at the level of the enterocyte in which surface area and contact time are maximized; whether this applies to the myocyte to any appreciable extent is unknown to me. Myocytes generally have an appreciable surface area by virtue of their length, but it pales in comparison to the absorptive simple columnar epithelia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    A phenomenon known as phosphate trapping occurs within the cell once creatine has passed, making exit impossible. I'd assume phosphocreatine is also excluded from Cr-T.

    To be honest, the whole creatine plasma membrane transport situation isn't that well understood. Our professors were quite confident that a transporter exists, but I've seen data showing that diffusion may play a [minor] role. This is, of course, at the level of the enterocyte in which surface area and contact time are maximized; whether this applies to the myocyte to any appreciable extent is unknown to me. Myocytes generally have an appreciable surface area by virtue of their length, but it pales in comparison to the absorptive simple columnar epithelia.

    You studied this alot more than i have. Anyway, creatinine is smaller cuz its cyclized and its probably also more lipophilic than creatine so it may passively diffuse easier. How does creatinine make it out of the myocyte anyway?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    You studied this alot more than i have. Anyway, creatinine is smaller cuz its cyclized and its probably also more lipophilic than creatine so it may passively diffuse easier. How does creatinine make it out of the myocyte anyway?
    Same deal: there is a transporter (which was actually confused with a choline transporter up until the past few decades), but diffusion also appears to be a possibility.
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Interesting discussion, however my bowels couldn't handle the old school 35 g a week loading cycle back in the day. I can't imagine what 30g a day or more would do. Sorry if that's too much info guys, just a thought lol. I take 2.5-3g a day and it helps me not get so bloated.
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    In for more on this. Really great read so far.
  

  
 

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