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    http://health.yahoo.net/experts/dayi...c-issues-death

    What you guys have to say about this?? Latest news
    "Difficult things take a long time, impossible things take a little longer."
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    Quote Originally Posted by punjabimunde View Post
    http://health.yahoo.net/experts/dayi...c-issues-death

    What you guys have to say about this?? Latest news


    Time to circle the wagons
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    Funny comments by Gotti who reps for AndroFactory...a company that was built on taking everything Eric did at Primordial.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallinghsosa View Post
    Funny comments by Gotti who reps for AndroFactory...a company that was built on taking everything Eric did at Primordial.
    except the raid
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raw Dog
    But who was pesticides
    Saw that too. I don't know what USP's response is, or if they have one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by punjabimunde View Post
    http://health.yahoo.net/experts/dayi...c-issues-death

    What you guys have to say about this?? Latest news
    Good read, but take it for face value. There is a 'link'... There is a link between Kevin Bacon and Charlize Theron and there is a link between stupidity and fatalities caused by J-walking and being struck by a taxi cab. I'm not using sarcasm to insult you, I'm trying to illustrate that fundamentally, one can not attribute this compound as the cause of death. Correlation is not causation. Military training does not guarantee the soldiers adequate water intake and the drill instructor will likely not say, "oh, you're feeling pain in your chest and heart palpitations? Why don't you just sit this one out."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    Good read, but take it for face value. There is a 'link'... There is a link between Kevin Bacon and Charlize Theron and there is a link between stupidity and fatalities caused by J-walking and being struck by a taxi cab. I'm not using sarcasm to insult you, I'm trying to illustrate that fundamentally, one can not attribute this compound as the cause of death. Correlation is not causation. Military training does not guarantee the soldiers adequate water intake and the drill instructor will likely not say, "oh, you're feeling pain in your chest and heart palpitations? Why don't you just sit this one out."
    I read the link and even the FDA cautioned that this was anecdotal and there was currently nothing to suggest causation...it quite honestly surprised me that they said that
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    I read the link and even the FDA cautioned that this was anecdotal and there was currently nothing to suggest causation...it quite honestly surprised me that they said that
    You never know what you are gonna get out of the FDA. Its a large organization and some folks there are reasonable and some folks there are aggressively anti-supplement. I also think that the FDA gets a little annoyed at being bothered all the time to remove supplements from the market by certain groups and people, and they may react to that harrassment in a manner which could be seen as being actually (dare i say it) objective

    In the end though they will likely act. On there own timetable of course
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    I read the link and even the FDA cautioned that this was anecdotal and there was currently nothing to suggest causation...it quite honestly surprised me that they said that
    Agreed.
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    The 1,3 DMAA is undoubtedly causative and not merely correlated. The caveat is that it is a cause. This looks like a 3-hit case:

    1. Predisposition
    2. Exercise
    3. 1,3 DMAA

    An NE reuptake inhibitor should act as a positive inotrope (SV)/chronotrope (HR) and also increase afterload/TPR. This will drive up MAP and create an increased cardiac metabolic demand. Now you pair this with exercise (increased HR, mildly increased SV) and metabolic demand further increases. Now finally pair these two with a predisposition (e.g. poor coronary blood flow -> environmental; left-dominant heart -> genetic) and it is quite possible that metabolic demand exceeded metabolic supply and cardiac arrest ultimately occurred.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    The 1,3 DMAA is undoubtedly causative and not merely correlated. The caveat is that it is a cause. This looks like a 3-hit case:

    1. Predisposition
    2. Exercise
    3. 1,3 DMAA

    An NE reuptake inhibitor should act as a positive inotrope (SV)/chronotrope (HR) and also increase afterload/TPR. This will drive up MAP and create an increased cardiac metabolic demand. Now you pair this with exercise (increased HR, mildly increased SV) and metabolic demand further increases. Now finally pair these two with a predisposition (e.g. poor coronary blood flow -> environmental; left-dominant heart -> genetic) and it is quite possible that metabolic demand exceeded metabolic supply and cardiac arrest ultimately occurred.

    you forgot to mention the other ingredients in Jack3d

    Also, it is never a good idea to start a stim you have never taken before on a day where you are exerting yourself extraordinarily. I suspect the soldier and the marathon runner may have been unfamiliar with the product and unbeknownst to them they were extremely sensitive to it

    Stims can be safe if used correctly. If used incorrectly they can be harmful
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    you forgot to mention the other ingredients in Jack3d

    Also, it is never a good idea to start a stim you have never taken before on a day where you are exerting yourself extraordinarily. I suspect the soldier and the marathon runner may have been unfamiliar with the product and unbeknownst to them they were extremely sensitive to it

    Stims can be safe if used correctly. If used incorrectly they can be harmful
    Yeah the other ingredients also worsen the situation, but I was commenting on how everyone is saying there is a correlation but not a cause. Well, by my measure, 1,3 DMAA is definitely a cause.

    Does that mean that using the stim responsibly would be harmful? No, but on the same note, deaths clearly would not have occurred if jack3d wasn't taken, so there is definitely a causative factor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Yeah the other ingredients also worsen the situation, but I was commenting on how everyone is saying there is a correlation but not a cause. Well, by my measure, 1,3 DMAA is definitely a cause.

    Does that mean that using the stim responsibly would be harmful? No, but on the same note, deaths clearly would not have occurred if jack3d wasn't taken, so there is definitely a causative factor.

    tylenol is a causative factor in many deaths as well. rarely is it the sole cause (unless one intentionally overdoses)
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    Why did Theraflu and Bronkaid got banned??
    "Difficult things take a long time, impossible things take a little longer."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    tylenol is a causative factor in many deaths as well. rarely is it the sole cause (unless one intentionally overdoses)
    Exactly
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    Quote Originally Posted by punjabimunde View Post
    Why did Theraflu and Bronkaid got banned??

    Banned? I think these were just pulled off the shelves voluntarily. no?
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    Quote Originally Posted by punjabimunde View Post
    Why did Theraflu and Bronkaid got banned??
    Bronkaid was a recall from what I was told at CVS
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    Yea that's what I meant but what made them recall these products...even NyQuil pills
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    The 1,3 DMAA is undoubtedly causative and not merely correlated. The caveat is that it is a cause. This looks like a 3-hit case:

    1. Predisposition
    2. Exercise
    3. 1,3 DMAA

    An NE reuptake inhibitor should act as a positive inotrope (SV)/chronotrope (HR) and also increase afterload/TPR. This will drive up MAP and create an increased cardiac metabolic demand. Now you pair this with exercise (increased HR, mildly increased SV) and metabolic demand further increases. Now finally pair these two with a predisposition (e.g. poor coronary blood flow -> environmental; left-dominant heart -> genetic) and it is quite possible that metabolic demand exceeded metabolic supply and cardiac arrest ultimately occurred.
    Mr. Cooper, undoubtably you are one of the smartest men I've interacted with on the boards. You also have a way with words moreso than most politicians (a good trait), but past the nicely framed and worded post, is a meaningless point. Anything that constricts blood vessels (albeit caffeine) could do something to someone with a cardiac predisposition after intense exercise sessions. All else aside, Jack3d had a matrix of stimulants, not just 1,3DMAA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    Mr. Cooper, undoubtably you are one of the smartest men I've interacted with on the boards. You also have a way with words moreso than most politicians (a good trait), but past the nicely framed and worded post, is a meaningless point. Anything that constricts blood vessels (albeit caffeine) could do something to someone with a cardiac predisposition after intense exercise sessions. All else aside, Jack3d had a matrix of stimulants, not just 1,3DMAA.
    I appreciate the kind words man. Let me clarify something so you can see it from my point of view:

    -Jack3d has 2 stims: caffeine and 1,3D
    -Schizandra actually reduces afterload (human study) and thus TPR/CO
    -Arginine will have no effect on BP or a slight reduction (less afterload)
    -Creatine and BA won't really affect cardiovascular parameters

    Taking those into account, you're looking at caffeine and 1,3D (plus 2 ingredients that may have the opposite effect). Caffeine is synergistic with the NE reuptake properties of 1,3DMAA; so is exercise, which increases NE release into the synaptic cleft (or adrenal medulla).

    So a vasoconstricutor would not have the same effect as 1,3 DMAA per se. DMAA hits more than just TPR; it hits cardiac output too, and it does so in a manner that becomes more pronounced with caffeine and/or exercise. Inhibitors of eNOS or other vasoconstrictors would not have this effect
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    Mr. Cooper, undoubtably you are one of the smartest men I've interacted with on the boards. You also have a way with words moreso than most politicians (a good trait), but past the nicely framed and worded post, is a meaningless point. Anything that constricts blood vessels (albeit caffeine) could do something to someone with a cardiac predisposition after intense exercise sessions. All else aside, Jack3d had a matrix of stimulants, not just 1,3DMAA.
    Mr. Coopers area of expertise is a valuable complement to my area of expertise and that of the other smart folks on this board
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    I appreciate both of you taking the time to be on these forums. Thanks.
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    What I don't get is why they say 80 reported cases like that a large number when aspartame and MSG have 200 times more and are often not even know ingredients with little to no warning labels. It's all money and politics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NADDANME View Post
    What I don't get is why they say 80 reported cases like that a large number when aspartame and MSG have 200 times more and are often not even know ingredients with little to no warning labels. It's all money and politics.
    Most adverse event reports are ridiculous anyway but you have to report them the the FDA regardless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    Mr. Cooper, undoubtably you are one of the smartest men I've interacted with on the boards. You also have a way with words moreso than most politicians (a good trait), but past the nicely framed and worded post, is a meaningless point. Anything that constricts blood vessels (albeit caffeine) could do something to someone with a cardiac predisposition after intense exercise sessions. All else aside, Jack3d had a matrix of stimulants, not just 1,3DMAA.
    I think that was the point, that it was only part of the equation. Most people that use it are not dropping like flies, so it isn't the only factor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by punjabimunde View Post
    Why did Theraflu and Bronkaid got banned??
    It's not banned. Know your facts before spreading gossip.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beejis60 View Post
    It's not banned. Know your facts before spreading gossip.
    Read the next posts and get ur fact straight before you start typing
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    Quote Originally Posted by punjabimunde View Post
    Read the next posts and get ur fact straight before you start typing
    I know the facts long before anyone ever posted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    PA brought/popularized:

    1,3D
    DAA
    COP
    Ursolic Acid

    USPLabs brought/popularized:

    Cissus
    Berberine
    Mucuna/L-dopa
    Rauwolscine

    Kudos to both
    I thought Matt/RPN brought rauwolscine to the market?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdelV View Post
    I thought Matt/RPN brought rauwolscine to the market?
    He did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    He did.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdelV View Post
    I thought Matt/RPN brought rauwolscine to the market?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdelV View Post
    I thought Matt/RPN brought rauwolscine to the market?
    Indeed he did, but USPlabs popularized it
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    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    The original heat stack was under Avant Labs not RPN was it not? I thought Par Deus was the one who first introduced alpha-y

    where is @Rodja

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdelV View Post
    I thought Matt/RPN brought rauwolscine to the market?
    Rauwolscine = yohimbe ... That's how it sneaked past Aussie customs for a good couple of years
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captn_the View Post

    Rauwolscine = yohimbe ... That's how it sneaked past Aussie customs for a good couple of years
    Honestly, the should of fined Usplabs & the distributor. They should of cleared that, tho Im sure they lost tonz of stock.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    The original heat stack was under Avant Labs not RPN was it not? I thought Par Deus was the one who first introduced alpha-y

    where is @Rodja

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    The original heat stack was under Avant Labs not RPN was it not? I thought Par Deus was the one who first introduced alpha-y

    where is @Rodja

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdelV View Post

    Honestly, the should of fined Usplabs & the distributor. They should of cleared that, tho Im sure they lost tonz of stock.
    2 year TGA investigation
    Minimum $10m fine

    More fines due soon... I'm sure you're already aware.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captn_the View Post
    Rauwolscine = yohimbe ... That's how it sneaked past Aussie customs for a good couple of years

    no its alpha yohimbine and it was quite popular before USP labs ever touched it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I appreciate the kind words man. Let me clarify something so you can see it from my point of view:

    -Jack3d has 2 stims: caffeine and 1,3D
    -Schizandra actually reduces afterload (human study) and thus TPR/CO
    -Arginine will have no effect on BP or a slight reduction (less afterload)
    -Creatine and BA won't really affect cardiovascular parameters

    Taking those into account, you're looking at caffeine and 1,3D (plus 2 ingredients that may have the opposite effect). Caffeine is synergistic with the NE reuptake properties of 1,3DMAA; so is exercise, which increases NE release into the synaptic cleft (or adrenal medulla).

    So a vasoconstricutor would not have the same effect as 1,3 DMAA per se. DMAA hits more than just TPR; it hits cardiac output too, and it does so in a manner that becomes more pronounced with caffeine and/or exercise. Inhibitors of eNOS or other vasoconstrictors would not have this effect
    I see. Thanks, Coop.
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