PA and the future of sports supplements in America....

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    PA and the future of sports supplements in America....


    PA,
    With everything that has happened over the past 10 years in the sports supplement industry, where do you see it 10 years from now?
    Starting with the Ephera ban and throughout the ban on pro-hormones, the government's public crucifixion of you, the steroid witch hunts and now the possiblity of future (pending?) legislation, it seems like what a lot of us love and are passionate about has taken a helluva beating and is on the ropes. Do you think the industry can survive and possibly even thrive once again like it did in the eary - mid 2000's? I've always considered those to be the glory days of the sports supplement industry. You could walk into any supplement store and buy your favorite Ephedra based fat burner (when fat burners were still effective), the pro-hormone of your choice (1-AD was the sh.i.t) and an effective anti-e/ anti-a if you wanted. Companies were making money hand over fist because the products they were selling were effective. It seems like, anymore, when something effective is introduced to the market it isn't very long before it is yanked or an attempt to yank it is made (DMAA anyone?). I know hormonal based products are, for the most part, a thing of the past and the only way to get an ECA stack is to go to the pharmacy and build your own, but do you think the industry can rebound and be as great as it was in those days? And if so, what category or type of product do you think holds the most promise for the future of sports supplements?

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    I wish i knew the answer. Hormone products will slowly be margianlized out of exist either by civil lawsuits, FDA enforcement, or legistlation effectively making them controlled

    stimulants that work may all eventually be banned if they become popular

    you will not see a time like 2000s again
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I wish i knew the answer. Hormone products will slowly be margianlized out of exist either by civil lawsuits, FDA enforcement, or legistlation effectively making them controlled

    stimulants that work may all eventually be banned if they become popular

    you will not see a time like 2000s again
    That's a shame. You would think politicians and the FDA have bigger fish to fry than worrying about dietary supplements. They've eliminated hormone products and yanked Ephedra. Why not stop there? I'm sure the pharmacuetical companies made a fortune just from those two being pulled (scheduled as a drug/ banned as dietary supplement). They need to leave well enough alone.
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    Dietary Supplements are their competition. The FDA/Politicians are owned by Big Pharma. Put two and two together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemenza View Post
    Dietary Supplements are their competition. The FDA/Politicians are owned by Big Pharma. Put two and two together.
    I put two and two together a long time ago. The point I was trying to make was that, while dietary supplements negatively affect the bottom line of Big Pharma, I would imagine it's nothing like it was 7-10 years ago. Everything effective has either been banned or will probably be banned in the forseeable future. One would think the financial impact of sports supplements on the pharmacuetical industry has been diminished so greatly in the past decade that they wouldn't even care at this point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceredumbellum View Post
    That's a shame. You would think politicians and the FDA have bigger fish to fry than worrying about dietary supplements.
    The bigger fish either buy their way into the system or are protected by their money some other way; the FDA goes after medium to small fish deliberately because they can't fight back. It's the same with the IRS and audits, they audit the middle class more than anyone because they have enough money to steal but not enough to pay for an effective defense. The don't audit the poor because they have nothing to steal, they don't audit the rich as much because it costs too much for the return, and they're often calling the shots at a higher level than the auditors. The FDA, likewise, goes after the easy targets, regardless of whether or not what they're selling is 'effective' or not. If it's effective at taking money away from protected companies, it's effective enough.
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    What, nobody here feels like the government has your best interest at heart? For shame haha
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceredumbellum View Post
    That's a shame. You would think politicians and the FDA have bigger fish to fry than worrying about dietary supplements. They've eliminated hormone products and yanked Ephedra. Why not stop there? I'm sure the pharmacuetical companies made a fortune just from those two being pulled (scheduled as a drug/ banned as dietary supplement). They need to leave well enough alone.

    i dont think hormone supplements being yanked made a bit of difference to pharm industry. ephedra being yanked may have made some bit of difference


    there are 100 senators and 435 members in the house. Many of them not involved in the big deal issues. Its attractive for some of these folks to take on little causes that give them attention and make them look like heroes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceredumbellum View Post
    I put two and two together a long time ago. The point I was trying to make was that, while dietary supplements negatively affect the bottom line of Big Pharma, I would imagine it's nothing like it was 7-10 years ago. Everything effective has either been banned or will probably be banned in the forseeable future. One would think the financial impact of sports supplements on the pharmacuetical industry has been diminished so greatly in the past decade that they wouldn't even care at this point.
    if you look at the profits made by big pharma versus the profits made from some controversial sports supplements you will see how ridiculous it is to believe that they really think they are losing money to us
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    if you look at the profits made by big pharma versus the profits made from some controversial sports supplements you will see how ridiculous it is to believe that they really think they are losing money to us
    Good point, P.A. I'm sure it would have happened eventually, but it makes you wonder how long we would have made it without government interferance if not for sensationalistic, as.sh.ole "journalists" (I use the term journalist very loosely). It's a shame a few athletes died while taking Ephedra, but leave it to the media to blow it out of proportion to the point that it becomes public enemy #1 in the sports world. And of course you have the jerk that found the bottle of Andro after rummaging through Mark McGuire's locker. His brilliant reporting set off a sh.i.tstorm of self-rightousness not just in the media, but with politicians going all the way up to the President of the United States! Nothing like mentioning steroids during the State of the Union address to put the final nail in the coffin for us, Dubya! I even voted for the man twice, but when I heard him break that out on primetime network television all I could do was shake my head and think, "Just what in the bloody Hell are you doing talking about steriods?! Our ship is officially sunk!" I mean good God!

    So we lose hormonal based supplements as well as the only real fat burner that worked, due in large part to the a-holes in the media and politicians who needed something to make them look good to the ignorant masses (the majority of which couldn't tell you the difference between pro-hormones and Ephedra).

    Let's look at Major League Baseball... Does anybody really think it's better and more entertaining now than it was 10 years ago? McGuire and Sammy Sosa brought the sport back from the dead with their home run race. I'll never forget it. It was one of the greatest MLB seasons I've had the privelage to follow in my life. Now we're lucky to see a guy hit 45 HR's in a season and if someone hits 50+ he's automatically a "guilty until proven innocent" steroid user. I'm just waiting for the NFL to get their HGH testing program finalized that they've been pushing for years now. Barring a miracle it will be implemented soon..... and it will completely destroy the sport. How else do they think these guys are able to have 10+ year careers and bounce back from injuries so quick? Not to mention the weekly beating their bodies' take. Great idea there! Let's willingly destroy the greatest sport in the world (apologies to you soccer fans). If, or more realistically when, it does happen I believe a 5+ year career for a non-quarterback or kicker will become a rareity and the most popular sport in America will be ruined.

    Alright, my rant's over. My apologies for carrying on like that and getting off topic a bit. I don't typically like when others go off with really long posts and try not to do so myself, but I just had to get that off my chest. I'm not even going to get into their crucifixion of P.A.... That whole thing was a thoroughly disgusting display on behalf of our wonderful government, with them patting themselves on the back the entire time for a job well done. And of course you had the media showering them with lavish praise from day 1 for getting that "evil steroid guy".

    Wouldn't it be nice if they would just leave us all the F alone and let us do our thing (which harms exponentially fewer people than prescription or even OTC drugs)...? But we all know that's not going to happen. No, they won't stop until the only things left at our disposal are multivitamins and possibly a few protein supplements (if we're lucky).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    if you look at the profits made by big pharma versus the profits made from some controversial sports supplements you will see how ridiculous it is to believe that they really think they are losing money to us
    I agree. Sports supplements are not their concern. But I do believe they have their sights set on the nutritional supplement indurstry as a whole, especially the vitamins, minerals, herbs that improve immunity, longevity and prevent diseases. And they use their minion politicians to do their dirty work. We remember what Dick Durbin attempted last year.

    In their eyes if there are 314 million American citizens, that's 314 million potential customers... "How can we target each and every one"?
    For one you can make up fake diseases/illnesses and convince the average American they are sick and need this new medicine. Two, we can actually make sure they are sick and rely on pharm medicine to feel better.

    Right now my joints are killing me. I actually use Joint Force, R3, Super Cissus, high doses fish oil, MSM, Glucosamine, etc. And it helps! If I didn't have access to these I'd have no choice but to be pounding down Pfizer's Advil for relief.

    Not to mention people who have lowered cholesterol / bp without statins and instead had success with phytosterols, DHA/EPA, vitamin E, etc.

    I think they use these DMAA type situations to put a negative light on the nutritional supplement industry as a whole and try and win over public opinion in hopes to enforce more and more regulations, until eventually Vitamin C costs $200 a bottle.

    Or maybe I'm just paranoid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemenza View Post
    I agree. Sports supplements are not their concern. But I do believe they have their sights set on the nutritional supplement indurstry as a whole, especially the vitamins, minerals, herbs that improve immunity, longevity and prevent diseases. And they use their minion politicians to do their dirty work. We remember what Dick Durbin attempted last year.

    In their eyes if there are 314 million American citizens, that's 314 million potential customers... "How can we target each and every one"?
    For one you can make up fake diseases/illnesses and convince the average American they are sick and need this new medicine. Two, we can actually make sure they are sick and rely on pharm medicine to feel better.

    Right now my joints are killing me. I actually use Joint Force, R3, Super Cissus, high doses fish oil, MSM, Glucosamine, etc. And it helps! If I didn't have access to these I'd have no choice but to be pounding down Pfizer's Advil for relief.

    Not to mention people who have lowered cholesterol / bp without statins and instead had success with phytosterols, DHA/EPA, vitamin E, etc.

    I think they use these DMAA type situations to put a negative light on the nutritional supplement industry as a whole and try and win over public opinion in hopes to enforce more and more regulations, until eventually Vitamin C costs $200 a bottle.

    Or maybe I'm just paranoid.

    no i think you make a valid point. They are interested in the sports supplement industry because its excesses give them a tool to regulate the entire industry, and the destruction of the entire industry is their goal
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemenza View Post
    I agree. Sports supplements are not their concern. But I do believe they have their sights set on the nutritional supplement indurstry as a whole, especially the vitamins, minerals, herbs that improve immunity, longevity and prevent diseases. And they use their minion politicians to do their dirty work. We remember what Dick Durbin attempted last year.

    In their eyes if there are 314 million American citizens, that's 314 million potential customers... "How can we target each and every one"?
    For one you can make up fake diseases/illnesses and convince the average American they are sick and need this new medicine. Two, we can actually make sure they are sick and rely on pharm medicine to feel better.

    Right now my joints are killing me. I actually use Joint Force, R3, Super Cissus, high doses fish oil, MSM, Glucosamine, etc. And it helps! If I didn't have access to these I'd have no choice but to be pounding down Pfizer's Advil for relief.

    Not to mention people who have lowered cholesterol / bp without statins and instead had success with phytosterols, DHA/EPA, vitamin E, etc.

    I think they use these DMAA type situations to put a negative light on the nutritional supplement industry as a whole and try and win over public opinion in hopes to enforce more and more regulations, until eventually Vitamin C costs $200 a bottle.

    Or maybe I'm just paranoid.
    Once you get over Beatrice's presentation style, this is actually a really good video on just how poorly regulated the pharmaceutical industry is. You could almost see how the supplement caveat "This product is not intended to............" could be applied to many of the statins and other drugs that are introduced to the market with minimal positive evidence. It also digs pretty deep into the companies control over what is and is not published WRT drug creation.



    Jason Cholewa, Ph.D., CSCS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I wish i knew the answer. Hormone products will slowly be margianlized out of exist either by civil lawsuits, FDA enforcement, or legistlation effectively making them controlled

    stimulants that work may all eventually be banned if they become popular

    you will not see a time like 2000s again
    Welcome to Canada..lol.

    But a question for you Pat...I'm a crusty old fella that followed some of your earlier stuff way back...what ever happened to "site specific non-hormonal" product that you were tinkering with?..if I am recalling it correctly I dont know..lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordeen View Post
    Welcome to Canada..lol.But a question for you Pat...I'm a crusty old fella that followed some of your earlier stuff way back...what ever happened to "site specific non-hormonal" product that you were tinkering with?..if I am recalling it correctly I dont know..lol
    I am not sure what you are referring to
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    I am not sure what you are referring to
    Carrageenan? If not nevermind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordeen View Post
    Carrageenan? If not nevermind.
    oh yeah. someone marketed it at one time actually

    its not something i can say is necessarily safe as it hasnt been tested except on animals
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post

    oh yeah. someone marketed it at one time actually

    its not something i can say is necessarily safe as it hasnt been tested except on animals
    We are animals...lol. any word on results?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Once you get over Beatrice's presentation style, this is actually a really good video on just how poorly regulated the pharmaceutical industry is. You could almost see how the supplement caveat "This product is not intended to............" could be applied to many of the statins and other drugs that are introduced to the market with minimal positive evidence. It also digs pretty deep into the companies control over what is and is not published WRT drug creation.



    Jason Cholewa, Ph.D., CSCS
    lol she's intense. Great video, very interesting.

    ZiR... you over on MD still?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordeen View Post
    We are animals...lol. any word on results?
    well i heard the stuff works pretty good (better than synthol) but the risk of an anaphyltic reaction IMO is just too scary
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemenza View Post
    lol she's intense. Great video, very interesting.

    ZiR... you over on MD still?
    Nope, can't remember the last time I posted there actually.

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