Exactly what is this?

  1. New Member
    brenthebdog's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  173 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    140
    Rep Power
    50496
    Level
    14
    Lv. Percent
    10.66%

    Exactly what is this?


    You're probably aware of the hype around USPs' new product Versa-1. I did my research and couldn't even find the correct compound, the only thing that looked slightly similar was this:

    2-Propenamide, N-[(2S)-2-hydroxy-2-(4-methoxyphenyl)ethyl]-3-phenyl-,(2E)
    (CAS No. 15298-36-9)


    And this is the compound that USP is using for Versa-1:
    N-[2-hydroxy-2(4-methoxyphenyl)ethyl]-3-phenyl-2-propenamide


    From what I gather so far this reads like a flavanol and an acrylamide.

    Morin:
    2-(2,4-dihydroxyphenyl)-3,5,7-trihydroxychromen-4-one

    Acrylamide:
    2-Propenamide


    So what is this exactly, and what kind of pharmacokinetic route would it take?
    “Only as a warrior can one withstand the path of knowledge. A warrior cannot complain or regret anything. His life is an endless challenge, and challenges cannot possibly be good or bad. Challenges are simply challenges.”

  2. Board Sponsor
    Adizzle1's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  210 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,247
    Rep Power
    678363
    Level
    43
    Lv. Percent
    10.6%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Ageline is the ingredient in Versa-1 your talking about, it also contains citicholine i believe.

    Ageline is used in the new Oxyelite Pro as well.
    Performax Labs Online Company Rep.
    Facebook.com/pmaxlabs
    Fitmax: Fat Burning Energizing Pre Workout!
    Alphamax: Advanced Myotropic Complex...Alpha Begins Here
  3. New Member
    brenthebdog's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  173 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    140
    Rep Power
    50496
    Level
    14
    Lv. Percent
    10.66%

    Hey Dizzle, I couldn't find anything on Ageline. I found that a pyramid scheme vitamin company Nuskin has a vitamin called Ageloc, which is just cordycep mushroom extract. Did you mean Selegiline?

    And, this is what I'm coming up with for Choline CDP:

    5'-O-[hydroxy({hydroxy[2-(trimethylammonio)ethoxy]phosphoryl}oxy)phosphoryl]cytidine

    According to the friendly folk over at wikipedia, citicholine is is designed to increase dopamine receptor density. And, while it does say that CDP choline can increase luteinizing hormone levels, it is mostly used to increase the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.

    Neither of these appear to possess any notable anabolic properties.
    “Only as a warrior can one withstand the path of knowledge. A warrior cannot complain or regret anything. His life is an endless challenge, and challenges cannot possibly be good or bad. Challenges are simply challenges.”
    •   
       

  4. Board Sponsor
    Adizzle1's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  210 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,247
    Rep Power
    678363
    Level
    43
    Lv. Percent
    10.6%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    USP labs posted that at higher doses agenline has anabolic properties which most tend to disagree with in humans. Let me see if i can find that post.
    Performax Labs Online Company Rep.
    Facebook.com/pmaxlabs
    Fitmax: Fat Burning Energizing Pre Workout!
    Alphamax: Advanced Myotropic Complex...Alpha Begins Here
  5. Board Supporter
    jimbuick's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    10,320
    Rep Power
    7367359
    Level
    98
    Lv. Percent
    46.48%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranActivity RoyaltyPosting Pro

    I myself am surprised by the lack of literature on the compound myself. But the results I've seen tell me its worth trying.
    Body Performance Solutions Representative

    Check out our products at www.bpsnutrition.net
    Check out our FaceBook page at https://www.facebook.com/pages/Body-Performance-Solutions/191322614238042
  6. New Member
    brenthebdog's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  173 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    140
    Rep Power
    50496
    Level
    14
    Lv. Percent
    10.66%

    Breaking this molecular formula apart I came up with this (bear with me I can't post links yet):

    Using this formula [2-hydroxy-2(4-methoxyphenyl)ethyl] it somewhat matches this plant:

    Aquilaria sinensis
    6-Hydroxy-2[2-(4-hydroxyphenyl)ethyl]-4H-bezopyran-4-one


    //books.google. com/ books?id=WY5apZBtnLwC&pg=PA193 &lpg=PA193&dq=[2-hydroxy-2%284-methoxyphenyl%29ethyl]&********bl&ots=uWHpsHwkxP&sig =YLnt-KH7kX8WVnIO8_1s4l4FNBs&hl=en&s a=X&ei=7SnyULujGYn1qwG--4GgCg&sqi=2&ved=0CGoQ6AEwBw#v= onepage&q=[2-hydroxy-2%284-methoxyphenyl%29ethyl]&f= false

    And by googling this formula: 3-phenyl-2-propenamide

    I found this article on PubMed, titled:
    N-hydroxy-3-phenyl-2-propenamides as novel inhibitors of human histone deacetylase with in vivo antitumor activity: discovery of (2E)-N-hydroxy-3-[4-[[(2-hydroxyethyl)[2-(1H-indol-3-yl)ethyl]amino]methyl]phenyl]-2-propenamide (NVP-LAQ824).

    It is way beyond my understanding but the most I can gather is that Versa-1 could be something like this (as copied from Wikipedia):

    "Protein deacetylase; any enzyme that removes acetyl groups from lysine amino acids in proteins.

    The main ones are histone deacetylases (HDACs) and sirtuins (SIRT1,2,3,5).

    Because histone proteins were the first known substrate for protein deacetylases the later all tend to be called HDACs of one class or another.

    Human protein deacetylase enzymes have been categorized into

    Class I (HDAC1,2,3,8);
    Class II (HDAC4,5,6,7,9,10),
    Class III (SIRT1,2,3,5,6),
    Class IV (HDAC11 and its related enzymes).

    Class III are the NAD+-dependent protein deacetylases."

    Or even something like this:

    "Histone deacetylases (HDAC) (EC number 3.5.1) are a class of enzymes that remove acetyl groups (O=C-CH3) from an ε-N-acetyl lysine amino acid on a histone, allowing the histones to wrap the DNA more tightly. This is important because DNA is wrapped around histones, and DNA expression is regulated by acetylation and de-acetylation. Its action is opposite to that of histone acetyltransferase. HDAC proteins are now also called lysine deacetylases (KDAC), to describe their function rather than their target, which also includes non-histone proteins."


    So, is Versa-1 involved in genetic expression, or is there a simpler explanation for its' purported anabolic ability?
    “Only as a warrior can one withstand the path of knowledge. A warrior cannot complain or regret anything. His life is an endless challenge, and challenges cannot possibly be good or bad. Challenges are simply challenges.”
  7. Board Sponsor
    Adizzle1's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  210 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,247
    Rep Power
    678363
    Level
    43
    Lv. Percent
    10.6%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    This is the compound were talking about here, here is a write up on it http://hightowerpharmacology.blogspo...-aegeline.html
    Performax Labs Online Company Rep.
    Facebook.com/pmaxlabs
    Fitmax: Fat Burning Energizing Pre Workout!
    Alphamax: Advanced Myotropic Complex...Alpha Begins Here
  8. New Member
    brenthebdog's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  173 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    140
    Rep Power
    50496
    Level
    14
    Lv. Percent
    10.66%

    Quote Originally Posted by Adizzle1 View Post
    This is the compound were talking about here, here is a write up on it //hightowerpharmacology.blogspot .com/2013/01/new-anabolic-aegeline.html[/url]
    Now that's more like it!

    It sounds like USP is just trying to use some novel form of Octopamine, check this PubMed article out:

    Octopamine in invertebrates.

    Abstract

    Octopamine (OA), a biogenic monoamine structurally related to noradrenaline, acts as a neurohormone, a neuromodulator and a neurotransmitter in invertebrates. It is present in relatively high concentrations in neuronal as well as in non-neuronal tissues of most invertebrate species studied. It functions as a model for the study of modulation in general. OA modulates almost every physiological process in invertebrates studied so far. Among the targets are peripheral organs, sense organs, and processes within the central nervous system. The known actions of OA in the central nervous system include desensitization of sensory inputs, influence on learning and memory, or regulation of the 'mood' of the animal. Together with tyramine, OA it is the only neuroactive non-peptide transmitter whose physiological role is restricted to invertebrates. This focussed the interest on the corresponding OA receptors. They are believed to be good targets for highly specific insecticides as they are not found in vertebrates. All octopamine receptors belong to the family of G-protein coupled receptors. Four of them could be distinguished using pharmacological tools. They show different coupling to second messenger systems including activation and inhibition of adenylyl cyclase, activation of phospholipase C and coupling to a chloride channel. Recently, octopamine receptors from molluscs and insects have been cloned. Further studies of all aspects of octopaminergic neurotransmission should give deeper insights into modulation of peripheral and sense organs and within the central nervous system in general.

    And beta phenyl acrylic acid, or "cinnamic acid" is used as an industrial emulsifier.

    Gotta say, it kinda looks like USP is trying to pull a fast one!
    “Only as a warrior can one withstand the path of knowledge. A warrior cannot complain or regret anything. His life is an endless challenge, and challenges cannot possibly be good or bad. Challenges are simply challenges.”
  9. Diamond Member
    mr.cooper69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    10,534
    Rep Power
    6137601
    Level
    96
    Lv. Percent
    76.28%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranActivity RoyaltyPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by brenthebdog View Post
    Now that's more like it!

    It sounds like USP is just trying to use some novel form of Octopamine, check this PubMed article out:

    Octopamine in invertebrates.

    Abstract

    Octopamine (OA), a biogenic monoamine structurally related to noradrenaline, acts as a neurohormone, a neuromodulator and a neurotransmitter in invertebrates. It is present in relatively high concentrations in neuronal as well as in non-neuronal tissues of most invertebrate species studied. It functions as a model for the study of modulation in general. OA modulates almost every physiological process in invertebrates studied so far. Among the targets are peripheral organs, sense organs, and processes within the central nervous system. The known actions of OA in the central nervous system include desensitization of sensory inputs, influence on learning and memory, or regulation of the 'mood' of the animal. Together with tyramine, OA it is the only neuroactive non-peptide transmitter whose physiological role is restricted to invertebrates. This focussed the interest on the corresponding OA receptors. They are believed to be good targets for highly specific insecticides as they are not found in vertebrates. All octopamine receptors belong to the family of G-protein coupled receptors. Four of them could be distinguished using pharmacological tools. They show different coupling to second messenger systems including activation and inhibition of adenylyl cyclase, activation of phospholipase C and coupling to a chloride channel. Recently, octopamine receptors from molluscs and insects have been cloned. Further studies of all aspects of octopaminergic neurotransmission should give deeper insights into modulation of peripheral and sense organs and within the central nervous system in general.

    And beta phenyl acrylic acid, or "cinnamic acid" is used as an industrial emulsifier.

    Gotta say, it kinda looks like USP is trying to pull a fast one!
    You have good intentions in this thread, but all your posts are off-base. It doesn't matter how octopamine acts in invertebrates. See the hightower article for a summary of octopamine's actions in humans. It's bunk as far as b-3 agonism is concerned, since b3-agonism is fairly limited in humans.

    Trans-cinnamic acid may actually have some value as a potentiator of insulin release. Insulin ultimately stimulates dephosphorlyation of glycogen synthase and phosphorylase, leading to stimulation of glycogenesis and inhibition of glycogenolysis. This can be viewed as "anabolism."
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
  10. Banned
    lronFist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    181
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    22
    Lv. Percent
    13.12%

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Trans-cinnamic acid may actually have some value as a potentiator of insulin release.
    Do you have a reference? The only article I could find demonstrated that a para or meta-hydroxyl were required on the benzene ring for insulin potentiation.

    The presence of m-hydroxy or p-methoxy residues on cinnamic acid was a significantly important substituent as an effective insulin releasing agent.
    ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18651742

    IMO, the mechanisms proposed for cinnamic acid are the same as the "run-of-the-mill" diabetic drugs which certainly are not anabolic.
  11. New Member
    brenthebdog's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  173 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    140
    Rep Power
    50496
    Level
    14
    Lv. Percent
    10.66%

    You have good intentions in this thread, but all your posts are off-base. It doesn't matter how octopamine acts in invertebrates. See the hightower article for a summary of octopamine's actions in humans. It's bunk as far as b-3 agonism is concerned, since b3-agonism is fairly limited in humans.

    Trans-cinnamic acid may actually have some value as a potentiator of insulin release. Insulin ultimately stimulates dephosphorlyation of glycogen synthase and phosphorylase, leading to stimulation of glycogenesis and inhibition of glycogenolysis. This can be viewed as "anabolism."

    My only point is this, after years of lifting and learning about supplements it's fairly obvious what is actually anabolic and what is just clever marketing. The most successful anabolics are AAS's and they've been around since the 60's, Test enanthate, Deca, Winny, Superdrol, Anavar, and on a more obscure and toxic level there are Cheque Drops. They all work, and they work extremely well. When you see a guy you played sports with in high school who had the same exact build as you put on 100+ lbs of muscle in 6 years the explanation "diet and training" doesn't exactly hold.

    And yes, I understand that insulin is a anabolic signaling hormone, and more phosphates and glycogen delivered to the muscle tissue means greater work capacity. I'm just skeptical that this particular product could be as revolutionary as USP claims.

    What are your thoughts about the pharmacokinetics of Versa-1?
    “Only as a warrior can one withstand the path of knowledge. A warrior cannot complain or regret anything. His life is an endless challenge, and challenges cannot possibly be good or bad. Challenges are simply challenges.”
  12. Featured Author
    Patrick Arnold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,119
    Rep Power
    554325
    Level
    50
    Lv. Percent
    40.28%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Y. This can be viewed as "anabolism."

    not protein anabolism
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  13. Featured Author
    Patrick Arnold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,119
    Rep Power
    554325
    Level
    50
    Lv. Percent
    40.28%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by brenthebdog View Post

    What are your thoughts about the pharmacokinetics of Versa-1?
    the amide bond wont stick around too long


    i
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  14. Featured Author
    Patrick Arnold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,119
    Rep Power
    554325
    Level
    50
    Lv. Percent
    40.28%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    nothing in the literature on this compound gives me any interest at all. USP labs surely will claim to have in house data and they also surely wont explain any of it. Why should they? People always buy on their word
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  15. New Member
    brenthebdog's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  173 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    140
    Rep Power
    50496
    Level
    14
    Lv. Percent
    10.66%

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the amide bond wont stick around too long
    i

    So is octopamine peptide bonded to cinnamic acid even useful as a beta-3 agonist, or is it really metabolized that quickly?
    “Only as a warrior can one withstand the path of knowledge. A warrior cannot complain or regret anything. His life is an endless challenge, and challenges cannot possibly be good or bad. Challenges are simply challenges.”
  16. Featured Author
    Patrick Arnold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,119
    Rep Power
    554325
    Level
    50
    Lv. Percent
    40.28%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by brenthebdog View Post
    So is octopamine peptide bonded to cinnamic acid even useful as a beta-3 agonist, or is it really metabolized that quickly?

    where is the evidence that the peptide (amide) bonded compound has beta3 activity? I thought the consensus was that it had to be metabolized to octopamine derivative. And even then, the evidence is so weak
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  17. Senior Member
    OrganicShadow's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  162 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    2,973
    Rep Power
    251877
    Level
    42
    Lv. Percent
    37.29%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by brenthebdog View Post
    So is octopamine peptide bonded to cinnamic acid even useful as a beta-3 agonist, or is it really metabolized that quickly?
    Although octopamine in the meta- and ortho- orientation are found naturally in various organ systems and platelets, it is ineffective in humans as a beta-3 receptor agonist on adipose tissue. No one has found a compound, naturally or synthetically, that has good pharma kinesiology in humans. Even then, beta-3 isnt nearly as functional as beta-2 for lipolysis.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10344530

    Research is limited in humans and predominantly unsupportive.

    -OS-Team AppNut
    By believing passionately in something that still does not exist, we create it. The nonexistent is whatever we have not sufficiently desired.
    Franz Kafka
  18. Diamond Member
    AZMIDLYF's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Age
    55
    Posts
    14,708
    Rep Power
    4783200
    Level
    91
    Lv. Percent
    68.71%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    Please continue breaking this down for us guys
    Always open light. It’s not what you open with, it’s what you finish with. Louie Simmons
  19. The BPS Rep
    Resolve's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  280 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    8,062
    Rep Power
    350691
    Level
    59
    Lv. Percent
    84.15%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityPosting ProPosting Authority

    There area total of 6 entries on Pubmed for Aegeline and not one of them suggests anabolism. One speculates that it may be a beta3-AR agonist, but not anabolic...

    Going through Aegle Marmelos references now, we'll see what I find...
    Bulk Performance Solutions
    --No Proprietary Blends, All Performance--

    ***NOW @ NP***
  20. New Member
    brenthebdog's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  173 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    140
    Rep Power
    50496
    Level
    14
    Lv. Percent
    10.66%

    Quote Originally Posted by OrganicShadow View Post
    Although octopamine in the meta- and ortho- orientation are found naturally in various organ systems and platelets, it is ineffective in humans as a beta-3 receptor agonist on adipose tissue. No one has found a compound, naturally or synthetically, that has good pharma kinesiology in humans. Even then, beta-3 isnt nearly as functional as beta-2 for lipolysis.



    Research is limited in humans and predominantly unsupportive.

    -OS-Team AppNut

    Haha, the Shadow knows! That looks very similar to another PubMed article I read. Most of the phamacokinetic studies have been conducted in-vitro, and the organisms studied have mostly been invertebrates (octopamine was first found in octopus saliva). And the consensus so far is that octopamine doesn't elicit the same nor-epinephrine mimetic effects in human beings. So, the mystery "patent pending" chemical in Versa-1 appears to be neither anabolic or particularly thermogenic. If you want extreme anabolics or thermogenics you can always go the Superdrol and 2,4-dinitrophenol route. ...or, hell, you can always go with protein powder and effort!
    “Only as a warrior can one withstand the path of knowledge. A warrior cannot complain or regret anything. His life is an endless challenge, and challenges cannot possibly be good or bad. Challenges are simply challenges.”
  21. New Member
    TGB1987's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    195
    Rep Power
    52833
    Level
    16
    Lv. Percent
    98.3%

    Thank you guys for taking a deeper look at this product. It is frustrating when a company puts a product out that is new and does little to show what the active ingredients actually do or hide behind a propietary blend. Like Patrick Arnold said many people buy on USP Labs word and ask for no proof. It is nice to see that people are investigating on their own before just believing whatever marketing was released by the company itself. Thank you all for the break down.
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. What is this chemical exactly?
    By MGH1982 in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 12-28-2006, 07:26 PM
  2. FinigenX Magnum ??? what is this stuff?
    By oswizzle in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 04-20-2005, 01:31 PM
  3. whats is this stuff?
    By x_muscle in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-01-2004, 12:46 PM
  4. What is this?
    By SCORPIO in forum Supplements
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 02-28-2004, 02:51 PM
  5. What is this routine?
    By T-Bar in forum Exercise Science
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 09-03-2003, 04:45 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in