Exactly what is this?

[brenthebdog]

You're probably aware of the hype around USPs' new product Versa-1. I did my research and couldn't even find the correct compound, the only thing that looked slightly similar was this:

2-Propenamide, N-[(2S)-2-hydroxy-2-(4-methoxyphenyl)ethyl]-3-phenyl-,(2E)
(CAS No. 15298-36-9)


And this is the compound that USP is using for Versa-1:
N-[2-hydroxy-2(4-methoxyphenyl)ethyl]-3-phenyl-2-propenamide


From what I gather so far this reads like a flavanol and an acrylamide.

Morin:
2-(2,4-dihydroxyphenyl)-3,5,7-trihydroxychromen-4-one

Acrylamide:
2-Propenamide


So what is this exactly, and what kind of pharmacokinetic route would it take?

[Adizzle1]

Ageline is the ingredient in Versa-1 your talking about, it also contains citicholine i believe.

Ageline is used in the new Oxyelite Pro as well.

[brenthebdog]

Hey Dizzle, I couldn't find anything on Ageline. I found that a pyramid scheme vitamin company Nuskin has a vitamin called Ageloc, which is just cordycep mushroom extract. Did you mean Selegiline?

And, this is what I'm coming up with for Choline CDP:

5'-O-[hydroxy({hydroxy[2-(trimethylammonio)ethoxy]phosphoryl}oxy)phosphoryl]cytidine

According to the friendly folk over at wikipedia, citicholine is is designed to increase dopamine receptor density. And, while it does say that CDP choline can increase luteinizing hormone levels, it is mostly used to increase the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.

Neither of these appear to possess any notable anabolic properties.

[Adizzle1]

USP labs posted that at higher doses agenline has anabolic properties which most tend to disagree with in humans. Let me see if i can find that post.

[jimbuick]

I myself am surprised by the lack of literature on the compound myself. But the results I've seen tell me its worth trying.

[brenthebdog]

Breaking this molecular formula apart I came up with this (bear with me I can't post links yet):

Using this formula [2-hydroxy-2(4-methoxyphenyl)ethyl] it somewhat matches this plant:

Aquilaria sinensis
6-Hydroxy-2[2-(4-hydroxyphenyl)ethyl]-4H-bezopyran-4-one


//books.google. com/ books?id=WY5apZBtnLwC&pg=PA193 &lpg=PA193&dq=[2-hydroxy-2%284-methoxyphenyl%29ethyl]&********bl&ots=uWHpsHwkxP&sig =YLnt-KH7kX8WVnIO8_1s4l4FNBs&hl=en&s a=X&ei=7SnyULujGYn1qwG--4GgCg&sqi=2&ved=0CGoQ6AEwBw#v= onepage&q=[2-hydroxy-2%284-methoxyphenyl%29ethyl]&f= false

And by googling this formula: 3-phenyl-2-propenamide

I found this article on PubMed, titled:
N-hydroxy-3-phenyl-2-propenamides as novel inhibitors of human histone deacetylase with in vivo antitumor activity: discovery of (2E)-N-hydroxy-3-[4-[[(2-hydroxyethyl)[2-(1H-indol-3-yl)ethyl]amino]methyl]phenyl]-2-propenamide (NVP-LAQ824).

It is way beyond my understanding but the most I can gather is that Versa-1 could be something like this (as copied from Wikipedia):

"Protein deacetylase; any enzyme that removes acetyl groups from lysine amino acids in proteins.

The main ones are histone deacetylases (HDACs) and sirtuins (SIRT1,2,3,5).

Because histone proteins were the first known substrate for protein deacetylases the later all tend to be called HDACs of one class or another.

Human protein deacetylase enzymes have been categorized into

Class I (HDAC1,2,3,8);
Class II (HDAC4,5,6,7,9,10),
Class III (SIRT1,2,3,5,6),
Class IV (HDAC11 and its related enzymes).

Class III are the NAD+-dependent protein deacetylases."

Or even something like this:

"Histone deacetylases (HDAC) (EC number 3.5.1) are a class of enzymes that remove acetyl groups (O=C-CH3) from an ε-N-acetyl lysine amino acid on a histone, allowing the histones to wrap the DNA more tightly. This is important because DNA is wrapped around histones, and DNA expression is regulated by acetylation and de-acetylation. Its action is opposite to that of histone acetyltransferase. HDAC proteins are now also called lysine deacetylases (KDAC), to describe their function rather than their target, which also includes non-histone proteins."


So, is Versa-1 involved in genetic expression, or is there a simpler explanation for its' purported anabolic ability?

[Adizzle1]

This is the compound were talking about here, here is a write up on it http://hightowerpharmacology.blogspo...-aegeline.html

[brenthebdog]

This is the compound were talking about here, here is a write up on it //hightowerpharmacology.blogspot .com/2013/01/new-anabolic-aegeline.html[/url]

Now that's more like it!

It sounds like USP is just trying to use some novel form of Octopamine, check this PubMed article out:

Octopamine in invertebrates.

Abstract

Octopamine (OA), a biogenic monoamine structurally related to noradrenaline, acts as a neurohormone, a neuromodulator and a neurotransmitter in invertebrates. It is present in relatively high concentrations in neuronal as well as in non-neuronal tissues of most invertebrate species studied. It functions as a model for the study of modulation in general. OA modulates almost every physiological process in invertebrates studied so far. Among the targets are peripheral organs, sense organs, and processes within the central nervous system. The known actions of OA in the central nervous system include desensitization of sensory inputs, influence on learning and memory, or regulation of the 'mood' of the animal. Together with tyramine, OA it is the only neuroactive non-peptide transmitter whose physiological role is restricted to invertebrates. This focussed the interest on the corresponding OA receptors. They are believed to be good targets for highly specific insecticides as they are not found in vertebrates. All octopamine receptors belong to the family of G-protein coupled receptors. Four of them could be distinguished using pharmacological tools. They show different coupling to second messenger systems including activation and inhibition of adenylyl cyclase, activation of phospholipase C and coupling to a chloride channel. Recently, octopamine receptors from molluscs and insects have been cloned. Further studies of all aspects of octopaminergic neurotransmission should give deeper insights into modulation of peripheral and sense organs and within the central nervous system in general.

And beta phenyl acrylic acid, or "cinnamic acid" is used as an industrial emulsifier.

Gotta say, it kinda looks like USP is trying to pull a fast one!

[mr.cooper69]

Now that's more like it!

It sounds like USP is just trying to use some novel form of Octopamine, check this PubMed article out:

Octopamine in invertebrates.

Abstract

Octopamine (OA), a biogenic monoamine structurally related to noradrenaline, acts as a neurohormone, a neuromodulator and a neurotransmitter in invertebrates. It is present in relatively high concentrations in neuronal as well as in non-neuronal tissues of most invertebrate species studied. It functions as a model for the study of modulation in general. OA modulates almost every physiological process in invertebrates studied so far. Among the targets are peripheral organs, sense organs, and processes within the central nervous system. The known actions of OA in the central nervous system include desensitization of sensory inputs, influence on learning and memory, or regulation of the 'mood' of the animal. Together with tyramine, OA it is the only neuroactive non-peptide transmitter whose physiological role is restricted to invertebrates. This focussed the interest on the corresponding OA receptors. They are believed to be good targets for highly specific insecticides as they are not found in vertebrates. All octopamine receptors belong to the family of G-protein coupled receptors. Four of them could be distinguished using pharmacological tools. They show different coupling to second messenger systems including activation and inhibition of adenylyl cyclase, activation of phospholipase C and coupling to a chloride channel. Recently, octopamine receptors from molluscs and insects have been cloned. Further studies of all aspects of octopaminergic neurotransmission should give deeper insights into modulation of peripheral and sense organs and within the central nervous system in general.

And beta phenyl acrylic acid, or "cinnamic acid" is used as an industrial emulsifier.

Gotta say, it kinda looks like USP is trying to pull a fast one!

You have good intentions in this thread, but all your posts are off-base. It doesn't matter how octopamine acts in invertebrates. See the hightower article for a summary of octopamine's actions in humans. It's bunk as far as b-3 agonism is concerned, since b3-agonism is fairly limited in humans.

Trans-cinnamic acid may actually have some value as a potentiator of insulin release. Insulin ultimately stimulates dephosphorlyation of glycogen synthase and phosphorylase, leading to stimulation of glycogenesis and inhibition of glycogenolysis. This can be viewed as "anabolism."

[lronFist]

Trans-cinnamic acid may actually have some value as a potentiator of insulin release.

Do you have a reference? The only article I could find demonstrated that a para or meta-hydroxyl were required on the benzene ring for insulin potentiation.

The presence of m-hydroxy or p-methoxy residues on cinnamic acid was a significantly important substituent as an effective insulin releasing agent.

ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18651742

IMO, the mechanisms proposed for cinnamic acid are the same as the "run-of-the-mill" diabetic drugs which certainly are not anabolic.

[brenthebdog]

You have good intentions in this thread, but all your posts are off-base. It doesn't matter how octopamine acts in invertebrates. See the hightower article for a summary of octopamine's actions in humans. It's bunk as far as b-3 agonism is concerned, since b3-agonism is fairly limited in humans.

Trans-cinnamic acid may actually have some value as a potentiator of insulin release. Insulin ultimately stimulates dephosphorlyation of glycogen synthase and phosphorylase, leading to stimulation of glycogenesis and inhibition of glycogenolysis. This can be viewed as "anabolism."

My only point is this, after years of lifting and learning about supplements it's fairly obvious what is actually anabolic and what is just clever marketing. The most successful anabolics are AAS's and they've been around since the 60's, Test enanthate, Deca, Winny, Superdrol, Anavar, and on a more obscure and toxic level there are Cheque Drops. They all work, and they work extremely well. When you see a guy you played sports with in high school who had the same exact build as you put on 100+ lbs of muscle in 6 years the explanation "diet and training" doesn't exactly hold.

And yes, I understand that insulin is a anabolic signaling hormone, and more phosphates and glycogen delivered to the muscle tissue means greater work capacity. I'm just skeptical that this particular product could be as revolutionary as USP claims.

What are your thoughts about the pharmacokinetics of Versa-1?

[Patrick Arnold]

Y. This can be viewed as "anabolism."

not protein anabolism

[Patrick Arnold]

What are your thoughts about the pharmacokinetics of Versa-1?

the amide bond wont stick around too long


i

[Patrick Arnold]

nothing in the literature on this compound gives me any interest at all. USP labs surely will claim to have in house data and they also surely wont explain any of it. Why should they? People always buy on their word

[brenthebdog]

the amide bond wont stick around too long
i

So is octopamine peptide bonded to cinnamic acid even useful as a beta-3 agonist, or is it really metabolized that quickly?

[Patrick Arnold]

So is octopamine peptide bonded to cinnamic acid even useful as a beta-3 agonist, or is it really metabolized that quickly?

where is the evidence that the peptide (amide) bonded compound has beta3 activity? I thought the consensus was that it had to be metabolized to octopamine derivative. And even then, the evidence is so weak

[OrganicShadow]

So is octopamine peptide bonded to cinnamic acid even useful as a beta-3 agonist, or is it really metabolized that quickly?

Although octopamine in the meta- and ortho- orientation are found naturally in various organ systems and platelets, it is ineffective in humans as a beta-3 receptor agonist on adipose tissue. No one has found a compound, naturally or synthetically, that has good pharma kinesiology in humans. Even then, beta-3 isnt nearly as functional as beta-2 for lipolysis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10344530

Research is limited in humans and predominantly unsupportive.

-OS-Team AppNut

[AZMIDLYF]

Please continue breaking this down for us guys

[Resolve]

There area total of 6 entries on Pubmed for Aegeline and not one of them suggests anabolism. One speculates that it may be a beta3-AR agonist, but not anabolic...

Going through Aegle Marmelos references now, we'll see what I find...

[brenthebdog]

Although octopamine in the meta- and ortho- orientation are found naturally in various organ systems and platelets, it is ineffective in humans as a beta-3 receptor agonist on adipose tissue. No one has found a compound, naturally or synthetically, that has good pharma kinesiology in humans. Even then, beta-3 isnt nearly as functional as beta-2 for lipolysis.



Research is limited in humans and predominantly unsupportive.

-OS-Team AppNut

Haha, the Shadow knows! That looks very similar to another PubMed article I read. Most of the phamacokinetic studies have been conducted in-vitro, and the organisms studied have mostly been invertebrates (octopamine was first found in octopus saliva). And the consensus so far is that octopamine doesn't elicit the same nor-epinephrine mimetic effects in human beings. So, the mystery "patent pending" chemical in Versa-1 appears to be neither anabolic or particularly thermogenic. If you want extreme anabolics or thermogenics you can always go the Superdrol and 2,4-dinitrophenol route. ...or, hell, you can always go with protein powder and effort!