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PH evolution

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    PH evolution


    Hi
    Can someone explain why it is often considered better to start with mild ph before taking some product like superDMZ ? I mean is there a scientific reason ? I just wonder if it's better for the body to take one time superDMZ or to take HDROL or EPI then something stronger and so on. Because at first sight it seems less dangerous to take one product rather than 2 or 3.

    Thank you

    Jeff

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    Quote Originally Posted by qdsdh2004 View Post
    Hi
    Can someone explain why it is often considered better to start with mild ph before taking some product like superDMZ ? I mean is there a scientific reason ? I just wonder if it's better for the body to take one time superDMZ or to take HDROL or EPI then something stronger and so on. Because at first sight it seems less dangerous to take one product rather than 2 or 3.

    Thank you

    Jeff
    I'll take a swing at this one for Patrick.

    There are a couple of things going on here... one is that after a few cycles the results that you get from a particular compound seem to taper off... i.e. the major effect that compound will have on your genetics will approach it's maximum... which is one of the reasons why you see folks recommending just a test-only cycle for first time AAS users, and advanced cycles that seem to have enough different high dose steroids in them to kill a horse. In the OTC PH/PS/DeS world, if you start off with m-sten/DMZ, where do you go from there?

    Another aspect is sides. The idea here is to take the mildest substance that you can for your first time to get your feet wet from a perspective of side-effects. Personally I would recommend hdrol for first time users, it's mild with regards to sides, the strength gains are nice, and size gains are decent... In my experience, EPI is stronger, and would be a good PH to graduate to after using hdrol... although mechabol is another good candidate... in fact, I found it to be even milder than hdrol.

    After playing in the shallow end for a bit I suppose I could recommend going to something like m-sten/DMZ unless you want to play with the "tren" based stuff, which I personally don't from a side effect standpoint.

    Note that another reason to progress in this manner is to manage the growth/strengthening of your connective tissue. i.e. if you start off with DMZ you'll probably find that half way through your planned cycle you've pulled a tendon, since muscle grows faster than connective tissue. This may still happen with hdrol/mechabol, but is less likely... note this is why I also tend to recommend that folks lift "heavy" (even if that means going down to 1-3 reps) for at least a couple of months prior to a cycle, and to try to increase reps, not weight, when the strength comes. Otherwise, many folks find themselves injured half way through a cycle and not realizing the full gains they could have...

    That all said, as far as the "risk" of taking multiple PH over time from a health standpoint goes, I suppose 3 new synthetic molecules that have never been safety tested is worse than 1... but I think if there were any serious short to medium consequences (besides the expected stuff like liver issues in those who abuse dosages and don't know how to keep their liver protected) we would know about it considering how many folks have used these products over the years. If that's really a concern, I'd recommend sticking with legit AAS (test, var, winny, dbol, etc.) as those molecules were developed by big pharma companies for used in clinical medical settings, have been through animal & human trials, etc.. and are still prescribed by Dr.s today. I personally have never crossed over to the dark side just so that I can look my kids in the eye and tell them I never did anything that I didn't buy OTC... even though for my health, legit AAS is clearly better.

    Anyhow, maybe not a "science-y" as you were looking for, but hope that helps.
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    wow nice answer thank you. I suppose you're speaking about legit AAS taken by injection or is it also true for oral winny for instance ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by qdsdh2004 View Post
    wow nice answer thank you. I suppose you're speaking about legit AAS taken by injection or is it also true for oral winny for instance ?
    Glad that was what you were looking for; you're welcome. Route of administration, injection vs. oral, in the short term is more of a personal preference than a health issue, as long as you take care of your liver (i.e. for the most part the only difference between oral and injectible is liver strain due to methylation - but keep in mind many drugs [e.g. lipitor] are methylated for oral bio-availability), at least for AAS that are available as both injectible and oral... obviously many AAS are injectible only. Of course, long term health effects of the liver strain caused by taking substances that are liver toxic (even Tylenol and booze) is another topic all together. Personally, I'm not too worried about it as I take 400mg of SAM-e every day, and my blood work always comes back great. But the point remains that most injectibles have been much better tested, are much less toxic to the body, and are therefore "healthier" in the mind of those who are educated on the subject.

    So, the "health" point I'm making here is on what's "well known and big pharma tested" vs. "a new designer androgen molecule that's pretty much tested on the consumer" .. so from that perspective winny would be "safer" then say hdrol in theory... that said you just so happen to pick one of the few AAS that's methylated even when it's injected, so in the case of winny, unless you were pinning something else, you'd probably want to go with oral winny... although reports are winny-only cycles are weak at best; it's more of a stacker. Of course, folks who pin typically base their cycles on Test, which those of us who are staying OTC can't really do as well, although there are some what I'll call "weaker" alternatives, the DHT based stuff, and some of the non-methylated DHEA based stuff (like the stuff from AMS or Forerunner, since PP is gone now) that needs to be really high dosed, which makes it (in my mind) cost prohibitive.

    I can say from my research, that if I were looking to go with legit AAS, oral only, and I wanted a "recomp" androgen, I'd probably go with:

    1) If $$ is no object, I'd go with Anavar since it's commonly considered a low side effect androgen [chicks take it] at a higher dose (since there's no test base) and maybe add in some DHT or DHEA based stuff to help as a base... and probably keep my cycle to 8 weeks.

    2) If $$ is an issue, as it typically is, I'd go with OT (Oral Turinabol) as it's cheaper than var...

    Of course, another option that I see myself wanting to investigate as I get older here, is to get into "optimal mens health" which involves doctors who prescribe TRT, HGH, etc. protocols to "optimize" (rather then correct - i.e. the goal is higher levels) and in that case since pinning is already part of it, folks seem to just add in whatever additional injectible goodies they want...
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    You seem to know a lot. I understand that it's better to always have test+oral like anavar or Tbol. Last question, what would be your choice for a lean (in terms of keeping gains with few water retention) bulk ? some say tbol ?
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    Would you rather test for an allergy 1 by one? Or all at once?

    If you tested for them all at once (by eating every food in creation) how would you know which one made you sick? (Yes I know today we do skin patch tests & you can test for them all, but you should still get my point!)

    You should always start simple. Don't start stacking until you understand the compounds individually...

    You could dive right in with a mix, you just won't know you're ****ed until you're ****ed!
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    Quote Originally Posted by qdsdh2004 View Post
    You seem to know a lot. I understand that it's better to always have test+oral like anavar or Tbol. Last question, what would be your choice for a lean (in terms of keeping gains with few water retention) bulk ? some say tbol ?
    Yea, as I said, the word is that Oral Turinabol (tbol) is a good choice from a price perspective, some even prefer it over var. To be honest, since I haven't tried either, I can't say anything other than "try one then the other out and then you'll know from experience".
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    Quote Originally Posted by DatRep View Post
    Would you rather test for an allergy 1 by one? Or all at once?

    If you tested for them all at once (by eating every food in creation) how would you know which one made you sick? (Yes I know today we do skin patch tests & you can test for them all, but you should still get my point!)

    You should always start simple. Don't start stacking until you understand the compounds individually...

    You could dive right in with a mix, you just won't know you're ****ed until you're ****ed!
    I can agree with taking things step wise, but we're not talking about a crazy stack here, we're talking about test (which, depending on the dosage is nothing more than akin to taking a test booster) as a base for a var or tbol cycle... if I were to ever go to the dark side, this is the kind of mild side-effect cycle I would start with, although I'd probably run a light AI (or at least have it and a SERM on hand) just in case of estrogen spillover. Now that said, if someone has zero experience with anabolic (i.e. no PH/PS at all) then I'd agree it might be best to start with a test only cycle. But I would say if someone had run even one OTC cycle prior, test+tbol or test+var is a good first cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by muad33b View Post
    I'll take a swing at this one for Patrick.

    There are a couple of things going on here... one is that after a few cycles the results that you get from a particular compound seem to taper off... i.e. the major effect that compound will have on your genetics will approach it's maximum... which is one of the reasons why you see folks recommending just a test-only cycle for first time AAS users, and advanced cycles that seem to have enough different high dose steroids in them to kill a horse. In the OTC PH/PS/DeS world, if you start off with m-sten/DMZ, where do you go from there?

    Another aspect is sides. The idea here is to take the mildest substance that you can for your first time to get your feet wet from a perspective of side-effects. Personally I would recommend hdrol for first time users, it's mild with regards to sides, the strength gains are nice, and size gains are decent... In my experience, EPI is stronger, and would be a good PH to graduate to after using hdrol... although mechabol is another good candidate... in fact, I found it to be even milder than hdrol.

    After playing in the shallow end for a bit I suppose I could recommend going to something like m-sten/DMZ unless you want to play with the "tren" based stuff, which I personally don't from a side effect standpoint.

    Note that another reason to progress in this manner is to manage the growth/strengthening of your connective tissue. i.e. if you start off with DMZ you'll probably find that half way through your planned cycle you've pulled a tendon, since muscle grows faster than connective tissue. This may still happen with hdrol/mechabol, but is less likely... note this is why I also tend to recommend that folks lift "heavy" (even if that means going down to 1-3 reps) for at least a couple of months prior to a cycle, and to try to increase reps, not weight, when the strength comes. Otherwise, many folks find themselves injured half way through a cycle and not realizing the full gains they could have...

    That all said, as far as the "risk" of taking multiple PH over time from a health standpoint goes, I suppose 3 new synthetic molecules that have never been safety tested is worse than 1... but I think if there were any serious short to medium consequences (besides the expected stuff like liver issues in those who abuse dosages and don't know how to keep their liver protected) we would know about it considering how many folks have used these products over the years. If that's really a concern, I'd recommend sticking with legit AAS (test, var, winny, dbol, etc.) as those molecules were developed by big pharma companies for used in clinical medical settings, have been through animal & human trials, etc.. and are still prescribed by Dr.s today. I personally have never crossed over to the dark side just so that I can look my kids in the eye and tell them I never did anything that I didn't buy OTC... even though for my health, legit AAS is clearly better.

    Anyhow, maybe not a "science-y" as you were looking for, but hope that helps.
    I think that is pretty much the reasons as I understand them. I agree that H-Drol is a great starter PH. I have almost no sides on it the gains are mild but on your first cycle do you want everyone right away to accuse you of using steroids? I disagree on the EPI Halodrol comaparison as EPI did little for me but raise my bp. Also if you do not know how you are going to react better to start mild. I have used SD and my first cycle was almost my last cycle...of anything. BP 200/110 Dr told me not to even bend over as I could stroke out. I was an idiot and used alcohol(beach trip foolishness) and it overwhelmed my liver and kidneys.

    Regarding resistance, I have to use double the dose of H-drol I used to to get a similar result and SD affects me Like H-Drol used to. So as muad33b stated you want to have somewhere to go after the first dose cuz trust me you don't wanna double dose SD(it can still be found and though brutal it is effective) My question is have you exhausted your natural potential? There is no age listed nor training experience. I had been training for 20 years natural before touching a PH. As Muad stated, muscle get stonger much faster than tendons. I think it is vital to have been lifting heavy for a number of years before using aas's to avoid tendon and joint injuries. I ruptured my left bicep tendon as I've oft mentioned in my posts, trust me you don't want that. And yes stacking multiple methyls is more foolish than 1 in my humble opinion. Now stack a non methyl and a methyl seems a more safe and sound strategy to me. Though there are few really effective non methyls out there. I am very curious about Trestalone acetate as it seems to be promising to be orally very effective. Just my two cents. And muad my friend, SD is as powerful as almost any "illegal" aas out there... don't kid yourself lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    I think that is pretty much the reasons as I understand them. I agree that H-Drol is a great starter PH. I have almost no sides on it the gains are mild but on your first cycle do you want everyone right away to accuse you of using steroids? I disagree on the EPI Halodrol comaparison as EPI did little for me but raise my bp. Also if you do not know how you are going to react better to start mild. I have used SD and my first cycle was almost my last cycle...of anything. BP 200/110 Dr told me not to even bend over as I could stroke out. I was an idiot and used alcohol(beach trip foolishness) and it overwhelmed my liver and kidneys.

    Regarding resistance, I have to use double the dose of H-drol I used to to get a similar result and SD affects me Like H-Drol used to. So as muad33b stated you want to have somewhere to go after the first dose cuz trust me you don't wanna double dose SD(it can still be found and though brutal it is effective) My question is have you exhausted your natural potential? There is no age listed nor training experience. I had been training for 20 years natural before touching a PH. As Muad stated, muscle get stonger much faster than tendons. I think it is vital to have been lifting heavy for a number of years before using aas's to avoid tendon and joint injuries. I ruptured my left bicep tendon as I've oft mentioned in my posts, trust me you don't want that. And yes stacking multiple methyls is more foolish than 1 in my humble opinion. Now stack a non methyl and a methyl seems a more safe and sound strategy to me. Though there are few really effective non methyls out there. I am very curious about Trestalone acetate as it seems to be promising to be orally very effective. Just my two cents. And muad my friend, SD is as powerful as almost any "illegal" aas out there... don't kid yourself lol
    Those are indeed scary sides...200/110 and risk of stroke upon bending over...f*ck I'm never touching that :/!
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthornothin View Post
    I think that is pretty much the reasons as I understand them. I agree that H-Drol is a great starter PH. I have almost no sides on it the gains are mild but on your first cycle do you want everyone right away to accuse you of using steroids? I disagree on the EPI Halodrol comaparison as EPI did little for me but raise my bp. Also if you do not know how you are going to react better to start mild. I have used SD and my first cycle was almost my last cycle...of anything. BP 200/110 Dr told me not to even bend over as I could stroke out. I was an idiot and used alcohol(beach trip foolishness) and it overwhelmed my liver and kidneys.

    Regarding resistance, I have to use double the dose of H-drol I used to to get a similar result and SD affects me Like H-Drol used to. So as muad33b stated you want to have somewhere to go after the first dose cuz trust me you don't wanna double dose SD(it can still be found and though brutal it is effective) My question is have you exhausted your natural potential? There is no age listed nor training experience. I had been training for 20 years natural before touching a PH. As Muad stated, muscle get stonger much faster than tendons. I think it is vital to have been lifting heavy for a number of years before using aas's to avoid tendon and joint injuries. I ruptured my left bicep tendon as I've oft mentioned in my posts, trust me you don't want that. And yes stacking multiple methyls is more foolish than 1 in my humble opinion. Now stack a non methyl and a methyl seems a more safe and sound strategy to me. Though there are few really effective non methyls out there. I am very curious about Trestalone acetate as it seems to be promising to be orally very effective. Just my two cents. And muad my friend, SD is as powerful as almost any "illegal" aas out there... don't kid yourself lol
    Yea, sides on SD are brutal to be sure. I've only run it once, after running around 7 cycles previously, all but one of which were hdrol or epi based (tried pplex once, sides on that weren't fun either)... and at this point I'm going to cut until I about as lean as you are, at which point we'll see how much muscle I have left... if I'm able to retain almost all of it, then my last cycle with be my final cycle, if not, I'll run a short SD cycle (have a few bottles I picked up pre-ban) and then that'll be my final one. To be honest, I had been heavy lifting for years, and spent over a year researching my first hdrol cycle before I ever ran it. I researched SD more than once, but the sides pushed me away... if it had never been banned, I may not have tried it. That all said, I agree SD is extremely powerful, it is a Designer Steroid... I just call the illegal ones "legit" as to differentiate between the OTC PH/PS/DeS stuff that never went through large clinical trials and the stuff still prescribed today by doctors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Those are indeed scary sides...200/110 and risk of stroke upon bending over...f*ck I'm never touching that :/!
    Yea, I didn't have that problem, but I was high dosing Hawthorne berry + CoQ10 + Garlic, used UR Spray on-cycle, really watched my sodium intake and upped my potassium intake (to reduce water retention) as I knew the BP issue could be a problem.
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    Thanks all for you honest answers. I know understand. I've been training heavy for 5 years naturally. I believe there are too much sides for me even one compound can be hard for the body. I will continue some more years naturally and will see later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qdsdh2004 View Post
    Thanks all for you honest answers. I know understand. I've been training heavy for 5 years naturally. I believe there are too much sides for me even one compound can be hard for the body. I will continue some more years naturally and will see later.
    You should give PumpSpray or UR Spray a try, I used them on a recent bulk and had great results in size and strength. PumpSpray also seemed to help with endurance. Not only do that not have dangerous sides, they are actually health enhancing
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