Debdrobium extract in this.....

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    Debdrobium extract in this.....


    PA,

    I know there's a product review section but since (to my knowledge) this hasn't hit the market yet, I was wondering what you thought about it (specifically the now infamous "Dendrobium"). And do you think we'll start seeing Dendrobium more and more in thermogenic supplements?

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    Anybody who has had the chance to sample this already please chime in.... I'm interested to know what it's like and if it's anything like DS Craze.

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    Which alkaloid?

    My compass points towards useless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel0022 View Post
    Which alkaloid?

    My compass points towards useless.
    I was under the impression that there were several different alkaloids (at least according to DS and their Craze product). But it does make you wonder why they would include B-Phenylethylamine HCL with the Dendrobium extract since B-Phenylethylamine is (allegedly) one of its' alkaloids. Maybe I'm off a bit, but it seems like something doesn't jive with this whole formula. Recent studies have shown Dendrobium contains several naturally occuring alkaloids. The problem is none of those alkaloids are PEA's.
    http:/ / m.newhope360.com /regulation-and-legislation/dmaa-successor-dendrobium-legit?page=2
    This whole thing has had me intrigued since the first time I took Craze... Insane high with an equally insane crash. I'm anxious to try this product (and any other supplements that contain Dendrobium extract) to find out if this whole Dendrobium thing is legit or if it's just another case of cute marketing to cover up adulterated supplements. Craze was just that.... Crazy. It was too much of a roller coaster for me. It sucks that DMAA won't be around much longer; especially the really good DMAA-based supplements (Clearshot, Jack3d, the old Ergolean, etc...). Those were great, "clean" feeling stimulants that didn't cause much of a crash. It seems like everything that's effective eventually gets pulled... and that's a damned shame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceredumbellum View Post
    PA,

    I know there's a product review section but since (to my knowledge) this hasn't hit the market yet, I was wondering what you thought about it (specifically the now infamous "Dendrobium"). And do you think we'll start seeing Dendrobium more and more in thermogenic supplements?

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    Name:  DETONATE bottle.jpg
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    Anybody who has had the chance to sample this already please chime in.... I'm interested to know what it's like and if it's anything like DS Craze.

    i havent a friggin clue
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceredumbellum View Post
    I was under the impression that there were several different alkaloids (at least according to DS and their Craze product). But it does make you wonder why they would include B-Phenylethylamine HCL with the Dendrobium extract since B-Phenylethylamine is (allegedly) one of its' alkaloids. Maybe I'm off a bit, but it seems like something doesn't jive with this whole formula. Recent studies have shown Dendrobium contains several naturally occuring alkaloids. The problem is none of those alkaloids are PEA's.
    http:/ / m.newhope360.com /regulation-and-legislation/dmaa-successor-dendrobium-legit?page=2
    This whole thing has had me intrigued since the first time I took Craze... Insane high with an equally insane crash. I'm anxious to try this product (and any other supplements that contain Dendrobium extract) to find out if this whole Dendrobium thing is legit or if it's just another case of cute marketing to cover up adulterated supplements. Craze was just that.... Crazy. It was too much of a roller coaster for me. It sucks that DMAA won't be around much longer; especially the really good DMAA-based supplements (Clearshot, Jack3d, the old Ergolean, etc...). Those were great, "clean" feeling stimulants that didn't cause much of a crash. It seems like everything that's effective eventually gets pulled... and that's a damned shame.
    Enjoy

    http://ogrestrengthpharmacology.webn...ium-alkaloids/
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    companies have been known to put "red herring" ingredients in products - to throw off the competition as to what really are the actives
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel0022 View Post
    Interesting information and dialouge... Thanks for the link.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    "We conducted our product development in a controlled environment with safety and performance enhancement in mind. We've tried hundreds of extracts from hundreds of different plants, and we didn't release Craze until we found something extraordinary."


    controlled studies on hundreds of plant extracts?

    how many of you believe this?
    They forgot that they tested dozens of different alkaloids from each plant......and tested each alkaloid from hundreds of plants.

    Sounds viable.........
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    It insults my goddam intelligence
    I think anybody with half a brain had their intelligence insulted long ago when all of this non-sense started and they doubled-down on their claims of natural plant extracts and alkaloids from Dendrobium, Dendromine, Dendrobex, Dendrobull****, etc...
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    I am pissed at DS--- they keep refusing to acknowledge to those of us who have used both versions of craze and noted major differences between the OG and new formula... Perhaps Dendrobium Extract is a red herring. Looks like Gaspari may have fallen for it.
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    I dont know what your talking about. The later version shows a bit more energy but all in all i get exactly the same effect.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/193693-lifting-heavy-every.html
    MY LOG ABOVE^^^ Yes i Squat heavy every single day. Come see how it works out!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DkGreek View Post
    I am pissed at DS--- they keep refusing to acknowledge to those of us who have used both versions of craze and noted major differences between the OG and new formula... Perhaps Dendrobium Extract is a red herring. Looks like Gaspari may have fallen for it.
    I noticed this. I gave one of my clients the two scoop serving of Crazolade and he came back to me asking what they had done to it because it was significantly weaker than the previous tub he had tried months before.

    The big noticeable difference for me was that I get no numbing feeling on the back of my throat with my new tub. I got it every time I used it with the last tub.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Will View Post
    I dont know what your talking about. The later version shows a bit more energy but all in all i get exactly the same effect.
    you should be comparing lots of product and not different flavors or color of labels

    with products sometimes there are issues with specific lots and you cant figure that out without cross referencing the lot number stamped on the bottle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    There is now a Chinese company offering a dendrobium ''extract'' containing the same compounds found in Craze's ''extract'' + 2 extra compounds.

    Dunno if those 2 compounds have any stimulant or MAOI properties though. I also wonder if they reverse-engineered the OG version or if it's just a marketing tool (look we found out and now offer the original extract).
    would like to see the spec sheet.

    isnt it true that dendrobrium does not typically contain phenethylamines in any quantity?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    I bet they're more than happy to provide you [a fake] one. They claim it contains nobilonine and 6-hydroxydendrobine in addition to the compounds found in Craze's ''extract''.


    That's what's being claimed by several analytical laboratories indeed:

    nutraingredients-usa.com/Regulation/Dendrobium-containing-Craze-pre-workout-supplement-hit-with-CA-class-action

    u need a better link
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    Patrick, could you speculate about the pharmacological properties of nobilonine and 6-hydroxydendrobine?
    i dont know a single thing about them. perhaps you can elaborate since you know how to spell them at least, which is more than i know
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceredumbellum View Post
    PA,

    I know there's a product review section but since (to my knowledge) this hasn't hit the market yet, I was wondering what you thought about it (specifically the now infamous "Dendrobium"). And do you think we'll start seeing Dendrobium more and more in thermogenic supplements?

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    Anybody who has had the chance to sample this already please chime in.... I'm interested to know what it's like and if it's anything like DS Craze.
    Not at all like Craze in my opinion. Craze is stronger. Detonate is a solid stim, energy lasts roughly about 6 hours.
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    Another company is traveling down the debdrobium road...MAN Sports.
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    As if dendrobium is giving the effects in OG Craze. LUL.
    On the road to bench pressing 400 pounds Currently over 360...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DkGreek View Post
    As if dendrobium is giving the effects in OG Craze. LUL.

    r u suggesting that the whole dendrobrium extract stuff on the label is a red herring? And that others are suckers for taking the bait?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    r u suggesting that the whole dendrobrium extract stuff on the label is a red herring? And that others are suckers for taking the bait?
    Possibly, but this really isn't me typing this. This is not Danny. This is someone totally different and not related.
    On the road to bench pressing 400 pounds Currently over 360...
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Not at all like Craze in my opinion. Craze is stronger. Detonate is a solid stim, energy lasts roughly about 6 hours.
    Saying that Craze is stronger is an understatement. They're not even in the same class IMO. OG Craze was the most intense PWO supplement I've ever experienced.
    As fara as Detonate goes... I finally bit the bullet and ordered me a bottle and, as much as I hate to say it, was thoroughly disappointed. It gave me a wicked headache just like Craze, which I believe is due to the NMT (or Tangerine extract in Detonate). Why NMT is used in any stimulant is beyond me because it seems like its' negative effects far outweigh its' positives. As far as Dendrobium? It's a crock if you ask me. I've tried B-Phenylethylamine HCL by itself and know what it feels like... and I felt it when I took Detonate. Of course, like most PEA's, the half-life is very short and the positive effects wear off quick. The difference between my straight B-PEA experience and my experience with Detonate was the crash... I experienced no crash when the B-PEA wore off where as Detonate caused a pretty substantial crash about 3 - 3 1/2 hours after ingestion (though not nearly as bad as the crash I got from OG Craze).
    Let's be straight here. Dendrobium is a bunch of bull****. N-Benzyl-2-Phenylethylamine is (allegedly) what gave OG Craze it's wicked, insanely strong effects (as well as its' equally wicked crash). If somebody can find a naturally occuring source of this particular PEA then good for them... They can market the **** out of it without having to worry they might be violating the DSHEA. But from everything I've read, N-Benzyl-2-PEA has yet to be found in a naturally occuring state (the stuff in Gaspari's old Spirodex was not N-Benzyl-2-PEA like a lot of people thought). Until then I think we'll keep seeing actual (worthless) Dendrobium in new dietary supplements, or Dendrobium along with other designer PEA's that won't be included on the label. I'm just glad I was able to find this out on the cheap. Quenching my curiosity was worth forking over $35 for one bottle. Of course others could have vastly different experiences than I did. My overall opinion? I'll go ahead and give the product a rating of 5 on a 1 - 10 scale... and I think that's being pretty generous. I experienced a lot more negative effects than positives. Take out the Dendrobium, put in more naturally occurring PEA's and a better, more tolerable MAOI (to hell with NMT/Tangerine Extract) and it could be a pretty decent product. But I'm no supplement guru, so what the hell do I know. I'm just a guy who knows his body pretty well and has tried just about every supplement on God's green earth since 1998. So I figured I'd add my two cents since I gave Detonate a whirl.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    r u suggesting that the whole dendrobrium extract stuff on the label is a red herring? And that others are suckers for taking the bait?
    Please read hxxp://xxx.reddit.com/r/Supplements/comments/16irwr/ds_craze_be_careful/ if you can

    I believe DS Craze is mostly a scam...

    I think it contains new synthetics... Dendrobium is most likely bull****...

    Can anyone tell me about n-benzyl-2-phenethylamine & N-ethyl-Beta-Methylphenylethylamine?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DatRep View Post
    Please read hxxp://xxx.reddit.com/r/Supplements/comments/16irwr/ds_craze_be_careful/ if you can

    I believe DS Craze is mostly a scam...

    I think it contains new synthetics... Dendrobium is most likely bull****...

    Can anyone tell me about n-benzyl-2-phenethylamine & N-ethyl-Beta-Methylphenylethylamine?

    i dont know how to decipher that url sorry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i dont know how to decipher that url sorry
    Just put this in the url bar: reddit.com/r/Supplements/comments/16irwr/ds_craze_be_careful/
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    Chrome takes me right to it if I do that
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    It's essentially a rehash of what has already been stated here, with links back to Thermolife. Not exactly breaking new ground.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i dont know a single thing about them. perhaps you can elaborate since you know how to spell them at least, which is more than i know
    Patrick, here is the chemical structure to Nobilin found in Dendrobium nobile. Could you elaborate on the effects, if any?

    pubchem . ncbi .nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid =5320178
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaNOmega View Post
    Patrick, here is the chemical structure to Nobilin found in Dendrobium nobile. Could you elaborate on the effects, if any?

    pubchem . ncbi .nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid =5320178


    it has no nitrogen atoms, so its doubtful it would have much cns stimulant activity
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    Concerns


    I posted this in another thread, but thought you guys might be interested. I am concerned about the safety of craze,

    I bought a tub of craze and love it after my first experience. I've only taken it once so far, took one scoup. The focus it gave me throughout the whole day, especially mentally was amazing, and I felt pumped. I did an aerobic session with it, mostly cardio and I played football with friends. It made me a top performer in the football, and in the gym. I had great focus and energy, so much more than usual.

    But I wanted to do my research so basically I just put the ingredients on the tin into wikipedia (I know...) and a few red flags came up. Basically craze works by using PEA with a MAOI to make it potent. This is cool, so far no problem - it'll make your veins contract somewhat and elevate your blood pressure slightly, but I think that's fine. But then I saw it has an analogue of Tyramine in it.

    Now Tyramine with an MAOI can be pretty bad. It's all there on wikipedia; " The displacement of norepinephrine (noradrenaline) from neuronal storage vesicles by acute tyramine ingestion is thought to cause the vasoconstriction and increased heart rate and blood pressure of the pressor response. In severe cases, adrenergic crisis can occur."


    So this crisis does NOT sound good! I'm hoping the quantities that Craze uses for Tyramine are on the safe side; "When using a MAO inhibitor (MAOI), the intake of approximately 10 to 25 mg of tyramine is required for a severe reaction compared to 6 to 10 mg for a mild reaction"

    Also the tyramine with an MAOI can lead to a hypertensive crisis, which sounds even worse. It makes me wonder why bother with Tyramine, why run the risk of those adverse reactions which could seriously affect DS's reputation, why not just stick with Phene and MAOI alone......?

    I'm not a scientist, I'm only reporting what I found, but if there are any scientists, chemist kids etc. who could pitch in, it would be very much appreciated, I'm sure by everyone. I'm hoping the Tyr quantities are safe and that I can continue using without any problems.... but long-term health is much more important than short term gains, I think everyone values their life more than their muscles......

    So an ingredient list verses what I found out from wiki:
    the ingredients list an analogue of PEA (there are a few analogues of PEA in the list) - which is somewhat related to amphetamines, but is a separate class completely to be fair;

    n-dimethyl-b-phenylethylamine - which is Hordenine (the MAOI present)


    N-Methyltyramine (NMT) - the analogue of Tyramine which is very similar and where the problem(s) could be found......

    And there's one called N-Diethyl-B-Phenylethylamine, which I couldn't really find much info on...... Science peeps?

    Remember, I am not a scientist, I am only reporting what I've read. I hope to be proved wrong so I can go back to taking Craze without worrying, so please chime in anyone and everyone with your thoughts, but let's try to keep it objective...
    If there are any scientists please, I'd very much like to hear from you.
    Ok I'll leave it there.
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    Oh lawd jesus it's a fiiirrreee! Here we go again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmassien View Post
    I posted this in another thread, but thought you guys might be interested. I am concerned about the safety of craze,

    I bought a tub of craze and love it after my first experience. I've only taken it once so far, took one scoup. The focus it gave me throughout the whole day, especially mentally was amazing, and I felt pumped. I did an aerobic session with it, mostly cardio and I played football with friends. It made me a top performer in the football, and in the gym. I had great focus and energy, so much more than usual.

    But I wanted to do my research so basically I just put the ingredients on the tin into wikipedia (I know...) and a few red flags came up. Basically craze works by using PEA with a MAOI to make it potent. This is cool, so far no problem - it'll make your veins contract somewhat and elevate your blood pressure slightly, but I think that's fine. But then I saw it has an analogue of Tyramine in it.

    Now Tyramine with an MAOI can be pretty bad. It's all there on wikipedia; " The displacement of norepinephrine (noradrenaline) from neuronal storage vesicles by acute tyramine ingestion is thought to cause the vasoconstriction and increased heart rate and blood pressure of the pressor response. In severe cases, adrenergic crisis can occur."


    So this crisis does NOT sound good! I'm hoping the quantities that Craze uses for Tyramine are on the safe side; "When using a MAO inhibitor (MAOI), the intake of approximately 10 to 25 mg of tyramine is required for a severe reaction compared to 6 to 10 mg for a mild reaction"

    Also the tyramine with an MAOI can lead to a hypertensive crisis, which sounds even worse. It makes me wonder why bother with Tyramine, why run the risk of those adverse reactions which could seriously affect DS's reputation, why not just stick with Phene and MAOI alone......?

    I'm not a scientist, I'm only reporting what I found, but if there are any scientists, chemist kids etc. who could pitch in, it would be very much appreciated, I'm sure by everyone. I'm hoping the Tyr quantities are safe and that I can continue using without any problems.... but long-term health is much more important than short term gains, I think everyone values their life more than their muscles......

    So an ingredient list verses what I found out from wiki:
    the ingredients list an analogue of PEA (there are a few analogues of PEA in the list) - which is somewhat related to amphetamines, but is a separate class completely to be fair;

    n-dimethyl-b-phenylethylamine - which is Hordenine (the MAOI present)


    N-Methyltyramine (NMT) - the analogue of Tyramine which is very similar and where the problem(s) could be found......

    And there's one called N-Diethyl-B-Phenylethylamine, which I couldn't really find much info on...... Science peeps?

    Remember, I am not a scientist, I am only reporting what I've read. I hope to be proved wrong so I can go back to taking Craze without worrying, so please chime in anyone and everyone with your thoughts, but let's try to keep it objective...
    If there are any scientists please, I'd very much like to hear from you.
    Ok I'll leave it there.

    hordenine (and i dont even think craze has much in it if any) is not a strong enough MAOI to give the problems u mention
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    Lol


    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Oh lawd jesus it's a fiiirrreee! Here we go again.
    Haha I'm sure you guys are sick of people disputing the safety etc. but I'd just rather be safe than sorry of course, thanks for the info patrick
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    Lol you guys scared of craze must be stim noobs, I was taking the original nasty ass grape stuff at 2 scoops with 25mg ephedrine hcl and feeling great and zoned in, almost comparable to adderal

    I think a lot of the speculators must be stim sensitive
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    Hordenine isn't a MAOI at all, although N-diethyl-b-PEA could be considered an exceptionally weak MAOBi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lronFist View Post
    Hordenine isn't a MAOI at all, although N-diethyl-b-PEA could be considered an exceptionally weak MAOBi.


    hordenine has been marketed as one, as a combo with PEA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    hordenine has been marketed as one, as a combo with PEA
    The non-para-OH derivative of hordenine has been studied for MAOB inhibition and it is physiologically inert in this respect (i.e. it requires an unreasonably large plasma concentration). I think people confuse selectivity with inhibition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lronFist View Post
    The non-para-OH derivative of hordenine has been studied for MAOB inhibition and it is physiologically inert in this respect (i.e. it requires an unreasonably large plasma concentration). I think people confuse selectivity with inhibition.

    N,N-dimethyl PEA?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lronFist View Post
    The non-para-OH derivative of hordenine has been studied for MAOB inhibition and it is physiologically inert in this respect (i.e. it requires an unreasonably large plasma concentration). I think people confuse selectivity with inhibition.
    Do you even lumen?
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    N,N-dimethyl PEA?
    Yes. I can email you the study if you'd like.
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