Supplements for rookies

[truthornothin]

doesnt all the creatine u ingest no matter if its monohydrate or whatever pretty much turn into creatinine before its excreted? It just converts a lot quicker with CEE

I thought the trouble with CEE was that it broke down quickly while still in the container, so basically you are ingesting creatinine from the outset

[Patrick Arnold]

I thought the trouble with CEE was that it broke down quickly while still in the container, so basically you are ingesting creatinine from the outset

it does that too. takes a few months though

[Spaniard]

I still don't understand the use of creatines outside of mono...

OP, truth is a great guy with a tremendous amount of knowledge. Tried and true knowledge.

[muad33b]

doesnt all the creatine u ingest no matter if its monohydrate or whatever pretty much turn into creatinine before its excreted? It just converts a lot quicker with CEE

I thought the trouble with CEE was that it broke down quickly while still in the container, so basically you are ingesting creatinine from the outset

In the study I quoted above they found CEE to produce much more creatinine than monohydrate: http://www.jissn.com/content/6/1/6

In a double-blind manner, participants were randomly assigned to a maltodextrose placebo (PLA), creatine monohydrate (CRT), or creatine ethyl ester (CEE) group.

<snip>

Serum Creatinine

For serum creatinine, the CEE group underwent significant increases compared to the PLA and CRT groups at days 6 and 48 (Figure 3). In the CEE group, creatinine levels increased 3-fold after the loading phase, and continued to be elevated above normal values throughout the study. This observation can likely be based on the premise that creatine ethyl ester has been shown to be degraded to creatinine in stomach acid (Tallon). Creatinine levels for the CRT group did elevate, but stayed within the normal range of 0.8–1.3 mg/dL, while the PLA group stayed near baseline levels. Serum creatinine is of importance because creatinine is the by-product of creatine degradation. Creatine is non-enzymatically converted into creatinine at approximately 1.7% daily for a typical 70 kg individual [23]. Creatine is also degraded by the gut into creatinine at an estimated rate of 0.1 g of a 5 g dose per hour. This indicates that the GI tract is not a major source of creatinine production; therefore, skeletal muscle is the primary site of creatinine production. [13,24]. With increases in muscle saturation of creatine, creatinine levels will increase due to reduction in the skeletal muscle uptake [1]. In the CRT group, skeletal muscle total creatine content underwent a significant increase at day 6 and 27, whereas the CEE group only increased at day 27. In light of the results for serum creatine and total muscle creatine, based on the premise that serum creatinine levels for CEE were significantly increased at days 6 and 48 (Figures 2 &3) our results seem to indicate that creatine esterification does not provide a superior alternative to creatine monohydrate for muscle creatine uptake.

Supplementation was based on fat-free mass for all groups but was comparable to a 20 g loading phase and a 5 g maintenance phase typically seen with creatine supplementation. When creatine is esterified with an alcohol group, the structure yields approximately 17.4 g of creatine for a 20 g dose and 4.37 g for a 5 g dosage [14]. The recommended loading and maintenance dosages for creatine ethyl ester are 10 g and 5 g, respectively. The supplement loading phase in the present study consisted of two 10 g dosages based on the premise that for a 10 g dose, maximal absorption usually occurs within two hours [13]. Blood draws were not taken specifically after supplementation, yet serum creatinine levels were approximately tripled at day 6 (2.68 ± SD 1.53 mg/dL) compared to baseline (0.95 ± SD 0.18 mg/dL) for the CEE group.

it does that too. takes a few months though

This graph of their data (Figure 3) indicates in happens at day 6:

[truthornothin]

Never mind it taste's God Awful, currently out of Green Mag and running some bulk Crea Mag, seems to be working, though a bit more water retention than the Green Magnitude.

[truthornothin]

I still don't understand the use of creatines outside of mono...

OP, truth is a great guy with a tremendous amount of knowledge. Tried and true knowledge.

Thank you for the vote of confidence. I've been doing this for 30+ years and as I have stated before I've literally and foolishly wasted thousands and thousands of dollars on useless supps. I fell for the outrageous and amazing claims more times than I care to admit. I am trying to make sure you all have the benefit of my mistakes. Consequently, I pay great attention when something does indeed work. Creatine was the first supplement outside protein that actually made a noticeable difference in my physique. Of course the pro-hormones made a huge diff.. I really do not call them supplements, they are a little more than that and I'll leave it at that. UA is one of those rare non hormonal supps that you can really see and feel working the spray is a big notch above. If I had time I'd start a NO BS thread. Just the basics "Is this supplement worth taking"? Hmm if I only had the time....I'd probably piss a bunch o' folks off in the process.

[Spaniard]

Thank you for the vote of confidence. I've been doing this for 30+ years and as I have stated before I've literally and foolishly wasted thousands and thousands of dollars on useless supps. I fell for the outrageous and amazing claims more times than I care to admit. I am trying to make sure you all have the benefit of my mistakes. Consequently, I pay great attention when something does indeed work. Creatine was the first supplement outside protein that actually made a noticeable difference in my physique. Of course the pro-hormones made a huge diff.. I really do not call them supplements, they are a little more than that and I'll leave it at that. UA is one of those rare non hormonal supps that you can really see and feel working the spray is a big notch above. If I had time I'd start a NO BS thread. Just the basics "Is this supplement worth taking"? Hmm if I only had the time....I'd probably piss a bunch o' folks off in the process.

I'd follow that ; )

[Wrivest]

As would I!! So much to learn, so little time!!

[muad33b]

Never mind it taste's God Awful, currently out of Green Mag and running some bulk Crea Mag, seems to be working, though a bit more water retention than the Green Magnitude.

I hate it when I round out of Green Mag, just got a new big tub of it in; I love the stuff, I really feel like forms in this product give what I want from creatine monohydrate, namely performance enhancement, and none of what I don't, namely palatability and low/no water retention. I've been taking it pre-workout taking a multi-mineral that includes magnesium, and am keeping an eye out for any "negative effects", haven't noted any, as someone brought up this concern earlier in this thread, have you?

I'd probably piss a bunch o' folks off in the process.

Such is the nature of honesty:

“A man with no enemies is a man with no character.” ~Paul Newman

[Patrick Arnold]

I still don't understand the use of creatines outside of mono...

OP, truth is a great guy with a tremendous amount of knowledge. Tried and true knowledge.

the creatine salts dissolve completely so for some formulations its more nifty then to have suspended powder. and they probably absorb faster so if you are trying to do something like match creatine levels with insulin levels they may be more controllable. but for ultimate creatine loading in muscle there is probably no advantage over mono

[SBH]

You mean cause the science behind CEE means it's mostly turning into creatinine in your gut and just puts a negative load on your kidneys and little creatine in your muscles? i.e. creatine mono is superior, here's a couple of studies:

http://www.jissn.com/content/6/1/6
Tinine and gets pissed out
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21411845

Save your $$ and go with creatine monohydrate, or with something like Green Mag (which uses Magnesium Creatine Chelate and Dicreatine Malate) if you're not a fan of taking mono.

I already know the mono is better and have plenty. It also causes water retention that hides my sixpack. Fast carbs make cee absorb better but you have it close to wo time to even get an effect. After that it converts to creatine and gets pissed out. Didn't know it converted in the container tho. When bf gets low enough i'll swith to mono.

[truthornothin]

I already know the mono is better and have plenty. It also causes water retention that hides my sixpack. Fast carbs make cee absorb better but you have it close to wo time to even get an effect. After that it converts to creatine and gets pissed out. Didn't know it converted in the container tho. When bf gets low enough i'll swith to mono.

I've used most variations and the Magnesium Chelate seems to give me less bloat than monohydrate.

[SBH]

I've used most variations and the Magnesium Chelate seems to give me less bloat than monohydrate.

Thanx Truth, but I really don't really want to start a creatine collection. The CEE preworkout with dextrose seems to do the ATP thing. The last thing I want to do is load monohydrate and have extra water besides the water from fighting sodium retention. I've got the pulse amplification down to where it doesn't aggravate my elbow so bad and potassium's keeping the water down. When the CEE starts getting old, I'll toss it. I'm a fat hogg in that avatar LOL

[SBH]

No criticism on the soy protein?

[SBH]

Never mind it taste's God Awful, currently out of Green Mag and running some bulk Crea Mag, seems to be working, though a bit more water retention than the Green Magnitude.

It does taste nasty. I bought it dirt cheap tho.

[SBH]

Thank you for the vote of confidence. I've been doing this for 30+ years and as I have stated before I've literally and foolishly wasted thousands and thousands of dollars on useless supps. I fell for the outrageous and amazing claims more times than I care to admit. I am trying to make sure you all have the benefit of my mistakes. Consequently, I pay great attention when something does indeed work. Creatine was the first supplement outside protein that actually made a noticeable difference in my physique. Of course the pro-hormones made a huge diff.. I really do not call them supplements, they are a little more than that and I'll leave it at that. UA is one of those rare non hormonal supps that you can really see and feel working the spray is a big notch above. If I had time I'd start a NO BS thread. Just the basics "Is this supplement worth taking"? Hmm if I only had the time....I'd probably piss a bunch o' folks off in the process.

UA's in a class all by itself. I'm loving the fat burning and glycogen loading effects.

[Spaniard]

but for ultimate creatine loading in muscle there is probably no advantage over mono

^ is what I use it for, which is why I save money on all the hype and stick with mono.

Thanks for the detailed explanation tho, Pat : )

[sugardaddy69]

To the OP's original questions, I don't think the topic of macronutrient (e.g. protein, meal, etc.) consumption timing (pre vs. post training) is really germane to the topic. I'm not sure there's much evidence on the topic beyond everyone's broscience opinion, but I could be wrong. Personally, I don't like to eat within two hours of training, and I do a huge (3 scoop) protein shake post workout. Pre-workout, unless I'm training fasted (in which case I'll add in some bulk Leucine to combat catabolism), I tend to use a stimulant (e.g. Clearshot, AMP, 'energy drink', etc. - maybe all three if I'm tired) some bulk AAKG (probably will switch to some bulk agmatine when I'm out of this), some of PN's Effervecent COP, some Green MAG, and Beta-Alanine.

But if we're talking about what I would recommend for sports supplements (as vitamins and protein powder are really dietary supplements; i.e. they're basically redundant if you eat right and spend some time in the sun) for a guy who weighs 155/160, I would say (in this order):


1) Food. Lots more of it, you're not going to get bigger worrying about losing your abs. Whether it be no-carb protein shakes or double quarter pounders from McD's, more food is key. If you don't eat a surplus of calories, you can't really add much muscle naturally... with the exception of hormonal anabolics, and Ursolic Acid, in my experience... and even with those things, more food is going to help... especially with a high caloric expenditure of training 6-7 days/wk.

2) Related to #1, why are you doing Crossfit? Are you in the military or law enforcement? The crossfit protocols are not designed to help you put on muscle. It's real strength is that it's "in-specific" training for folks who don't know what they'll encounter in their unpredictably demanding physical job... but there's a reason you don't see body builders using it, it's not that helpfull, as it keeps you from lifting heavy. In fact, the fact that many of the workouts are timed and have olyimpic type lifts in them, folks tend to have sloppy form towards the end of the set, which leads to a high incidence of injury. If I were you I would stop the Crossfit, eat some more food instead, and train heavier on my days at the "regular" gym. If I were you I would train each body part once per week, as heavy as I could (compound lifts like squat, deadlift, bench, weighted pull ups, weighted dips, shoulder press, etc.) in a "reverse pyarmid" style with an eye towards lower volume and higher intensity. There are many protocols of this nature that will get you on your way to greater strength and size.

3) Base Dietary Supps: Multi-Vitamin + Multi-Mineral (Use a multi-mineral like ZMK that doesn't have calcium, as you'll get a ton of calcium with #4 below), Fish Oil (liquid is easier), Probiotic, Protein Shakes if needed (I use them only post workout as I'm not hungry after I work out, but if I was, I'd eat real food as it's better than a shake), etc... If you’re tight on funds, and can’t get to 4,5 and 6 below, just get a Centrum from Walmart with some cheap fish oils capsules and move on to the below.

4) If you want to get bigger, your hormonal environment is key. Chicks can lift heavy, but they don't really get much bigger; why? Because they don't have the hormones for it. Taking E-Pharm's "TestForce 2" according to label directions (2 scoops 2x/day for 3 weeks, then 1 scoop 2x/day, till the max cycle recommendation... take 2 weeks off, repeat) if you want to remain natural, will help immensely. If you don't want to remain natural, I would still recommend you learn to eat and put on size with natural products and food before going to the dark side of PH/PS/DeS/AAS (ProHormones/ProSteroids/DesignerSteroids [might have to hurry on those] or Anabolic Androgenic Steroids) else you may just be wasting your health and $$ for little gain.

5) Get some Prototype Nutrition "UR Spray" and start using it at 50 sprays, 2x/day after a shower. This will help you to no put on fat while eating more (as per #1 above) and will also help you add muscle.

6) Creatine + Beta Alanine. Forget about the "NO" stuff, it's not that important. The whole "NO" thing is really over rated, maybe it does give you a pump and make you more vascular, maybe it doesn't... but in my experience, and with those that I know, I don't think it's that helpful in adding muscle. I wouldn't even put it in my top 10 supplements. A good quality creatine mix, like Green Mag, and some bulk Beta Alanine (dosed 3-4 times a day if you can make time for it) would help your performance, and therefore your ability to pack on muscle, much more. Take these both on workout and rest days as they build up in your system.

7) If you have more $$ left over after all that, then you can start looking into what else you might want to add to increase the speed at which you gain muscle. But if you can't gain muscle with the above, don't bother, figure out what you're doing wrong first.

Hope that helps.

---

Oh and yea, never ever ever shop at GNsee ... prices are outrageous there ... Vitamin Shop if you must for vitamins, but for any sports related supplements, online is the only way to go.

I guess you have it saved in a word format and just copy and paste it on such occasions

[muad33b]

I guess you have it saved in a word format and just copy and paste it on such occasions

Nope, wrote that on the fly brutha :-)