Lets Get To The Bottom Of This, Soy Protein and Estrogen - AnabolicMinds.com

Lets Get To The Bottom Of This, Soy Protein and Estrogen

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    Lets Get To The Bottom Of This, Soy Protein and Estrogen


    R1- Lets keep this thread clean of personal dislikes and on topic.

    What is your input on Soy Protein raising estrogen? I've read that the process of which soy protein is extracted uses alcohol, which depletes more than 98% of phyto-estrogen content.

    "You know the fun thing about the soy protein debate is people only hear what they want to hear, yes soy protein contains phyto-estrogen base which does highly mimic the properties of human estrogen, but the strange thing is under low doses phyto estrogen actually attaches itself to human estrogen cells making the body believe there is more estrogen in the body so it actually lowers it's estrogen production to comphensate, yet phyto estrogen doesn't have all the catabolic properties as normal human estrogen."

    It seems to be a torn discussion. There are studies proving both sides. I personally think it does not affect hormones to any measurable degree. Any insight on the subject is appreciated

    Both sides of the argument so read carefully.

    Quote Originally Posted by in10city View Post
    You realize that cow milk contains estrogens and unlike soymilk actually DOES transiently increase estrogen including E1 right? Funny how ignorami pull the estrogen card with soy but merrily plow away at milk.
    Three dietary intervention studies have reported the effects of soy or soy phytoestrogen consumption on reproductive hormones in men. Habito et al. (38) performed a randomized crossover study of 42 men with a mean age of 45.7 y who consumed 150 g lean meat or 290 g tofu (containing ∼70 mg isoflavones) daily for 4 wk. Blood concentrations of estradiol, testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and androstanediol glucuronide did not differ between the two diets. The mean testosterone-estradiol ratio was 10% lower (P = 0.05), SHBG was 9% higher (P = 0.01), and the free androgen index (total testosterone/SHBG 100) was 7% lower (P = 0.06) after tofu consumption. This slight reduction in androgen activity was not confirmed by Nagata et al. (39), who reported a parallel-arm study of 34 men with a mean age of 32.4 y, one-half of whom consumed an average of 343 mL soymilk (containing ∼48 mg isoflavones) daily for 2 mo. Blood concentrations of estradiol, total and free testosterone, and SHBG did not differ between the two groups, although estrone concentrations tended to decrease in the group consuming soymilk. These results are generally consistent with those of Mitchell et al. (30), who found no changes in serum concentrations of estradiol, testosterone, follicle-stimulating hormone or luteinizing hormone in men consuming a tablet containing 40 mg/d of soy isoflavones.
    This is a part of an article i found:

    IGF, Thyroid, and the Girly Hormones

    It's fairly clear that soy protein lowers testosterone levels. How does it affect estrogen and progesterone levels? You'd figure that genistein would at least reduce the activity of estrogen to some extent, since it binds at the same receptor site, right? Well, apparently not. It turns out that genistein does not inhibit the effects of estradiol and in fact has been demonstrated to exert an additive effect when combined with estradiol.(2,8)

    This means that they don't interfere with one another and can both exert the same negative effects at the same time, thus, packing a double punch. Furthermore, genistein may potentially increase estradiol levels as well. It's thought that this may occur because genistein may deconjugate estrone in the gut and allow for it to reabsorb into the bloostream and convert to estradiol.(9)

    It's possible that it may also exert some progestational activity.(10) Even worse is that the estrogenic activity of these phytoestrogens may have been underestimated in the past, as there is evidence that they may be much more potent in vivo as opposed to in vitro [test tube] studies.(11) Oh, and while we're still on the topic or hormones, soy protein has also been shown to decrease IGF-1 concentrations in male rats.(12) Oh, and I'd feel bad if I forgot to mention that it can lower T4 levels, too.(13)
    There is a fair amount of info out there that shows no support for soy protein feminizing men or affecting men, but if nothing else, common sense should prevail. There are entire cultures that have soy-based diets that do not seem to be ridden with men w/ breasts or anything like that. There is evidence that isoflavones can have anti-estrogenic activity as well. This is not to mention the fact that many of the SPI's on the market (almost all of them are SPI, not SPC) do not contain isoflavones.

    http://topsecretnutrition.net/soypro...a-analysis.pdf
    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/138/6/1244S.full.pdf
    http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...micals/soyiso/
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract
    http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA31221...-Baby-Boy.html

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    Crickets.
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    This whole section has been dead for the past couple hours
    •   
       

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    Link to aforementioned R1 comments
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    None directly at each other in this thread, but we have a negative history.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=145815101
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    what's to be settled in this debate anyways? lets just say soy doesn't give you gyno or make you start your period... are people going to stop drinking whey and replace it with soy?

    I don't get it...
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    Attempting to settle the theory that soy protein augments estrogen? I thought the OP was quite transparent.

    I didn't post this in regards to my personal dislike for another member, I posted it so the question can be answered, as there seems to be a very split decision on the matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel0022 View Post
    There are entire cultures that have soy-based diets that do not seem to be ridden with men w/ breasts or anything like that.
    No, but they sure produce highly androgenous males!
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    Doesn't affect this guy. Enough with the dick measuring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel0022 View Post
    Doesn't affect this guy. Enough with the dick measuring.

    Yeah, Poundstone is also cycling how many grams of exogenous androgens at a time? Bad comparison.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia View Post
    Yeah, Poundstone is also cycling how many grams of exogenous androgens at a time? Bad comparison.
    And I thought BB.com was bad. End it
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    The point is that based on available research, soy protein isolate should be considered a viable choice for protein supplementation.

    There is a chance, I'll admit, that a complete dietary replacement of chicken, beef, milk, fish proteins in favor of soy could make a small, imperceptible difference in hormone profiles. I'd say this effect, while perhaps unlikely, has not been definitively ruled out just yet.

    What we're arguing about, though, is supplementation. Will 30-60g per day of SPI-90 hurt your gains/make you unhealthy? I just don't think so, and I hope Pat can shed some light on this. This is a particularly relevant question because whey protein is getting damn expensive and SPI-90 offers a decent taste, nice nutrition profile, and cheap alternative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel0022 View Post
    R1- Lets keep this thread clean of personal dislikes and on topic.

    What is your input on Soy Protein raising estrogen? I've read that the process of which soy protein is extracted uses alcohol, which depletes more than 98% of phyto-estrogen content.

    "You know the fun thing about the soy protein debate is people only hear what they want to hear, yes soy protein contains phyto-estrogen base which does highly mimic the properties of human estrogen, but the strange thing is under low doses phyto estrogen actually attaches itself to human estrogen cells making the body believe there is more estrogen in the body so it actually lowers it's estrogen production to comphensate, yet phyto estrogen doesn't have all the catabolic properties as normal human estrogen."

    It seems to be a torn discussion. There are studies proving both sides. I personally think it does not affect hormones to any measurable degree. Any insight on the subject is appreciated

    Both sides of the argument so read carefully.
    i was talking to douglas kalman recently who said that he studied a group of males ingesting soy protein powder (a substantial amount per day) and after a period of time they showed no disturbance in hormone levels

    i think soy protein powder is ok but i would limit it to 30 -40 grams a day still just to be safe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia View Post
    Yeah, Poundstone is also cycling how many grams of exogenous androgens at a time? Bad comparison.

    his name is poundstone? how ironic given the picture
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i was talking to douglas kalman recently who said that he studied a group of males ingesting soy protein powder (a substantial amount per day) and after a period of time they showed no disturbance in hormone levels

    i think soy protein powder is ok but i would limit it to 30 -40 grams a day still just to be safe
    Do you know how much was being ingested during that study? Is it/will it be published?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel0022 View Post
    Do you know how much was being ingested during that study? Is it/will it be published?
    i dont remember but he may have said 60g

    i dunno whether it will be published. i didnt pursue the line of conversatoin
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    The Soy hysteria on this board is laughable. I remember a thread where a guy was going to the supermarket and looking through every single brand of tuna to find one that had no trace amounts of soy. He was thinking the soy in the tuna was going to make him grow boobs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    i dont remember but he may have said 60g

    i dunno whether it will be published. i didnt pursue the line of conversatoin
    So since most get that amount from shakes per day, personally I do 2 shakes when needed which is 40gPRO, would you agree that soy protein supplementation is safe in regards to null effects on hormones and is a viable option?

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    The Soy hysteria on this board is laughable. I remember a thread where a guy was going to the supermarket and looking through every single brand of tuna to find one that had no trace amounts of soy. He was thinking the soy in the tuna was going to make him grow boobs.
    Its out of control, soy doesn't give you man boobs. ****ty genetics do.
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    Does soy taste better or something? ...

    Myofibrillar protein synthesis following ingestion of soy protein isolate at rest and after resistance exercise in elderly men.

    Yang Y, et al. Show all

    Nutr Metab (Lond). 2012 Jun 14;9(1):57. [Epub ahead of print]

    Abstract ABSTRACT:

    BACKGROUND: Increased amino acid availability stimulates muscle protein synthesis, however, aged muscle appears less responsive to the anabolic effects of amino acids when compared to the young. We aimed to compare changes in myofibrillar protein synthesis (MPS) in elderly men at rest and after resistance exercise following ingestion of different doses of soy protein and compare the responses to those we previously observed with ingestion of whey protein isolate.

    METHODS: Thirty elderly men (age 71 +/- 5 y) completed a bout of unilateral knee-extensor resistance exercise prior to ingesting no protein (0 g), or either 20 g or 40 g of soy protein isolate (0, S20, and S40 respectively). We compared these responses to previous responses from similar aged men who had ingested 20 g and 40 g of whey protein isolate (W20 and W40). A primed constant infusion of L-[1-13C]leucine and L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine and skeletal muscle biopsies were used to measure whole-body leucine oxidation and MPS over 4 h post-protein consumption in both exercised and non-exercised legs.

    RESULTS: Whole-body leucine oxidation increased with protein ingestion and was significantly greater for S20 vs. W20 (P = 0.003). Rates of MPS for S20 were less than W20 (P = 0.02) and not different from 0 g (P = 0.41) in both exercised and non-exercised leg muscles. For S40, MPS was also reduced compared with W40 under both rested and post-exercise conditions (both P < 0.005); however S40 increased MPS greater than 0 g under post-exercise conditions (P = 0.04).

    CONCLUSIONS: The relationship between protein intake and MPS is both dose and protein source-dependent, with isolated soy showing a reduced ability, as compared to isolated whey protein, to stimulate MPS under both rested and post-exercise conditions. These differences may relate to the lower postprandial leucinemia and greater rates of amino acid oxidation following ingestion of soy versus whey protein.

    PMID 22698458
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    This thread is not about taste or anything like that. It is simply in regards to "Will soy give me gyno?" "Does soy raise estrogen?" threads and how a select few jump on it and say "Yea, it raises estrogen, dont take it"
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    Yea there are a few on bb.com that LOOOOOVE to quickly say that Soy = the man boobies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Does soy taste better or something? ...

    Myofibrillar protein synthesis following ingestion of soy protein isolate at rest and after resistance exercise in elderly men.

    Yang Y, et al. Show all

    Nutr Metab (Lond). 2012 Jun 14;9(1):57. [Epub ahead of print]

    Abstract ABSTRACT:

    BACKGROUND: Increased amino acid availability stimulates muscle protein synthesis, however, aged muscle appears less responsive to the anabolic effects of amino acids when compared to the young. We aimed to compare changes in myofibrillar protein synthesis (MPS) in elderly men at rest and after resistance exercise following ingestion of different doses of soy protein and compare the responses to those we previously observed with ingestion of whey protein isolate.

    METHODS: Thirty elderly men (age 71 +/- 5 y) completed a bout of unilateral knee-extensor resistance exercise prior to ingesting no protein (0 g), or either 20 g or 40 g of soy protein isolate (0, S20, and S40 respectively). We compared these responses to previous responses from similar aged men who had ingested 20 g and 40 g of whey protein isolate (W20 and W40). A primed constant infusion of L-[1-13C]leucine and L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine and skeletal muscle biopsies were used to measure whole-body leucine oxidation and MPS over 4 h post-protein consumption in both exercised and non-exercised legs.

    RESULTS: Whole-body leucine oxidation increased with protein ingestion and was significantly greater for S20 vs. W20 (P = 0.003). Rates of MPS for S20 were less than W20 (P = 0.02) and not different from 0 g (P = 0.41) in both exercised and non-exercised leg muscles. For S40, MPS was also reduced compared with W40 under both rested and post-exercise conditions (both P < 0.005); however S40 increased MPS greater than 0 g under post-exercise conditions (P = 0.04).

    CONCLUSIONS: The relationship between protein intake and MPS is both dose and protein source-dependent, with isolated soy showing a reduced ability, as compared to isolated whey protein, to stimulate MPS under both rested and post-exercise conditions. These differences may relate to the lower postprandial leucinemia and greater rates of amino acid oxidation following ingestion of soy versus whey protein.

    PMID 22698458
    I'd be more interested in a comparison to casein or egg.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tmac29 View Post
    Yea there are a few on bb.com that LOOOOOVE to quickly say that Soy = the man boobies.
    This train of thought is about as popular as "eat frequent meals" in the United States
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel0022 View Post
    So since most get that amount from shakes per day, personally I do 2 shakes when needed which is 40gPRO, would you agree that soy protein supplementation is safe in regards to null effects on hormones and is a viable option?
    .
    probably.

    there are other soy products which are much more rich in isoflavones than soy protein isolate
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    This train of thought is about as popular as "eat frequent meals" in the United States

    http://patrickarnoldblog.com/to-graze-or-to-gorge/
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    I'd be more interested in a comparison to casein or egg.
    Read that new hydrolysate study or the latest protein review out of Mcmasters university. Both reference MPS is best/maximized (wut lol) using protein from top to bottom :

    Whey isolate
    Egg
    Casein
    Soy

    Actually I'm not exactly sure on that order but I do know whey was always on top. Bovine milk was near the top too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Read that new hydrolysate study or the latest protein review out of Mcmasters university. Both reference MPS is best/maximized (wut lol) using protein from top to bottom :

    Whey isolate
    Egg
    Casein
    Soy

    Actually I'm not exactly sure on that order but I do know whey was always on top. Bovine milk was near the top too.
    I feel I've seen a different study equating casein and soy, which could make sense also since casein's amino profile isn't as good as whey (among other factors). It was posted here on AM, I could look it up.
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    Based on most of the studies I've read, soy has no effect whatsoever on hormones.
    I think supplementing your diet with soy is fine, in addition soy has some very beneficial health benefits.
    Bill Pearl is a vegetarian, who used soy regularly, and it didn't seem to hinder him.
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    Before someone chimes in, yes I know Bill was a lacto-ovo-vegetarian, but also supplemented with soy.
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    lol so I'm sitting here reading the following new study...

    J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2012 Jun 19;9(1):28. [Epub ahead of print]Consumption and biochemical impact of commercially available plant-derived nutritional supplements. An observational pilot-study on recreational athletes.
    And they find the following:

    Interestingly, those with abnormal estrogen levels shared the consumption of high dosage ofsoy protein (2 gr/Kg/die).
    and

    In our study, hyperestrogenism was observed in athletes who consumed high dosage of soyprotein, the main food source of phytoestrogens. Actually, besides the known beneficialeffects, these herbal hormones may have possible unfavorable effects in humans byinterfering with the function of normal cellular activities, such as receptor-mediated signaltransduction and DNA replication, as well as genotoxic, mutagenic and proliferation of somecancer cells [22]. This observation must be carefully considered when reflecting upon theincreasing number of vegan and vegetarian athletes for whom soy represents the main sourceof protein, consumed in the form of protein powders and bars [23-25].
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    lol so I'm sitting here reading the following new study...



    And they find the following:



    and
    They seem to not be convinced that they found causation and unless those citations are great (didn't care to look) it seems they immediately jumped to conclusions based on preconceived notions of phytoestrogens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    They seem to not be convinced that they found causation and unless those citations are great (didn't care to look) it seems they immediately jumped to conclusions based on preconceived notions of phytoestrogens.
    I think you may be correct. I skimmed it fairly quickly for juicy information. They tested animal stack for steroids, but found none.
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    Why even mess around. Water bottles have plastic that secrete estrogen, and if left out in the sun, the plastic leaks the estrogen into the water. I stay away from anything soy-based just to be safe. I mean, I'm sure it's ok to eat some edamame every once and a while, and it is actually delicious, but with plenty of whey (and even beef serum) protiens out there, why even discuss the need to worry about using soy-based protien. I don't know if you have ever tried Sun Warrior Protien, but I would rather drink sand! COSTCO has a 6-LB bag of CYTOSPORT that is about as much as a 3-LB tub of whey at ***/BB.com. Some of the estrogen spikes are also from messing around with "prohormones" that make the natural hormones react, raising levels. Like I said, i just stay away from soy.
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    Where does beef serum sit?
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    Hello guys, I am new here and just feel inclined to comment here. Let me first say i am not a nutritionist, just a 42 year old man that has enjoyed training most of my adult life along with learning about nutrition, supplements, etc as a way to be healthier and at earlier stages in my to increase my muscle size and strength. i also have 3 daughters and a wife. When my 7 year old started developing lumps under her nipples I started investigating female issues. Primarily Estrogen dominance. Let me also say that i am not vegetarian, i eat all kinds of food, etc and am not condoning any particular diet or way of life nutritionally.

    Estrogen dominance is a primary reason why most women develop earlier in life than they used to as well as why the have many female problems as they get older. it is also a big reason our current culture has s many feminized men (physically speaking). This dominance of estrogen comes from many things in our food, drink, and even air. As bodybuilders we eat a lot of chicken along with other meats. But this thread being concerned about soy phyto estrogens just seems to be somewhat misguided. If you examine the way our foods are grown/ raised with the man made chemicals and hormones/ antibiotics, etc we are getting much more estrogens from our environment than what healthy soy would cause. I say healthy because again it could depend greatly on the original source of the soy and how it wa grown with what chemicals. it is not the soy to be worried about. As mentioned earlier in the thread, many cultures have relied on soy for a long time with no demasculating issues. however, most of those cultures didn't grow their soy the way it is grown now. My point is that we should be more worried about our diet as a whole instead of soy. Any natural ingredient we add to our diet (using common sense) will not effect us any where near as much as all the other crap we eat, drink, and breathe now. We can effect our hormone levels to a much greater extent worrying about other things.
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    I'm pretty sure that earlier onset of puberty is more related to better fed and healthier individuals (yay! modern medicine) and the so-called feminizing of men is probably more related to culture and over-fed individuals.

    The phytoestrogens in soy are called isoflavones and many soy products are now completely absent of isoflavones due to chemical manipulation compared to "all natural" soy products.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bubbles
    Hello guys, I am new here and just feel inclined to comment here. Let me first say i am not a nutritionist, just a 42 year old man that has enjoyed training most of my adult life along with learning about nutrition, supplements, etc as a way to be healthier and at earlier stages in my to increase my muscle size and strength. i also have 3 daughters and a wife. When my 7 year old started developing lumps under her nipples I started investigating female issues. Primarily Estrogen dominance. Let me also say that i am not vegetarian, i eat all kinds of food, etc and am not condoning any particular diet or way of life nutritionally.

    Estrogen dominance is a primary reason why most women develop earlier in life than they used to as well as why the have many female problems as they get older. it is also a big reason our current culture has s many feminized men (physically speaking). This dominance of estrogen comes from many things in our food, drink, and even air. As bodybuilders we eat a lot of chicken along with other meats. But this thread being concerned about soy phyto estrogens just seems to be somewhat misguided. If you examine the way our foods are grown/ raised with the man made chemicals and hormones/ antibiotics, etc we are getting much more estrogens from our environment than what healthy soy would cause. I say healthy because again it could depend greatly on the original source of the soy and how it wa grown with what chemicals. it is not the soy to be worried about. As mentioned earlier in the thread, many cultures have relied on soy for a long time with no demasculating issues. however, most of those cultures didn't grow their soy the way it is grown now. My point is that we should be more worried about our diet as a whole instead of soy. Any natural ingredient we add to our diet (using common sense) will not effect us any where near as much as all the other crap we eat, drink, and breathe now. We can effect our hormone levels to a much greater extent worrying about other things.
    Great post!!
    Welcome aboard!
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    I'm pretty sure that earlier onset of puberty is more related to better fed and healthier individuals (yay! modern medicine) and the so-called feminizing of men is probably more related to culture and over-fed individuals.

    The phytoestrogens in soy are called isoflavones and many soy products are now completely absent of isoflavones due to chemical manipulation compared to "all natural" soy products.
    I would like to agree wit the first part of your statement but truthfully we are NOT a better fed culture than we used to be and as a whole we are definitely not healthier. As to the second part I understand but that again just goes back to why worry about the soy as a culprit for estrogen introduction. To me this discussion equates to police scrutinizing someone for using foul language in public when there are drunks driving by as they do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball
    I'm pretty sure that earlier onset of puberty is more related to better fed and healthier individuals (yay! modern medicine) and the so-called feminizing of men is probably more related to culture and over-fed individuals.

    The phytoestrogens in soy are called isoflavones and many soy products are now completely absent of isoflavones due to chemical manipulation compared to "all natural" soy products.
    This is not a good thing, there is growing concern in the medical community of early onset puberty in girls, some as young as 7-8 years old.
    There is a lot of speculation on the cause, but nothing definitive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    Good read, as usual. The whole IF theory is really taking off. Now all the super pure paleo folks are gonna go nuts and be like "see?! Cavemen ate usually one massive meal a day, so should we!"
  

  
 

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