Topical DHEA Question

jwa254

jwa254

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
In regards to topical DHEA products like Dermacrine and Transaderm, when one applies a product like the aforementioned to the chest/abs is there really a higher conversion rate to estrogen? I've read this in a few places and was unsure of the validity. I understand that the products are intended to be applied to the shoulder/upper back mainly but both products, if I am not mistaken, have an application area on the bottle that covers the chest.

Thanks.
 
jbryand101b

jbryand101b

Banned
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
hmm, good question.

i wouldn't think so though
 

Feel The Burn

New member
Awards
0
IMO no......and if there was it would be negligible.
 
MAxximal

MAxximal

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
I read somewhere the abdomen are is “highest conversion rate” but i`m not sure :(
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

Featured Author
Awards
1
  • Established
In regards to topical DHEA products like Dermacrine and Transaderm, when one applies a product like the aforementioned to the chest/abs is there really a higher conversion rate to estrogen? I've read this in a few places and was unsure of the validity. I understand that the products are intended to be applied to the shoulder/upper back mainly but both products, if I am not mistaken, have an application area on the bottle that covers the chest.

Thanks.

there is more aromatase in breast area than other areas of course. But other than that, I dunno if i can definitively answer this question
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

Featured Author
Awards
1
  • Established
In regards to topical DHEA products like Dermacrine and Transaderm, when one applies a product like the aforementioned to the chest/abs is there really a higher conversion rate to estrogen? I've read this in a few places and was unsure of the validity. I understand that the products are intended to be applied to the shoulder/upper back mainly but both products, if I am not mistaken, have an application area on the bottle that covers the chest.

Thanks.

why are you using dhea anyway?
 
jwa254

jwa254

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
why are you using dhea anyway?
I haven't yet. I was looking more towards the future. I ordered a couple bottles of Transaderm the other day when it was on sale. I figured they'd be useful when (and if) I begin cycling. However, I'm still a few years off of that.
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

Featured Author
Awards
1
  • Established
I haven't yet. I was looking more towards the future. I ordered a couple bottles of Transaderm the other day when it was on sale. I figured they'd be useful when (and if) I begin cycling. However, I'm still a few years off of that.

I think the 7-oxygenated dhea metabolites are great stuff. I dont understand why anyone would wanna mess with dhea itself though, given the fact that it can yield estrogen related sides
 
jwa254

jwa254

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I think the 7-oxygenated dhea metabolites are great stuff. I dont understand why anyone would wanna mess with dhea itself though, given the fact that it can yield estrogen related sides
I'll look into those. 7-oxo, yeah? I figured dhea was good stuff considering the wealth of dermacrine/transaderma users out there. I'll do some more research on it though before I come to a conclusion. I am considering purchasing that Ursobolic you're company has out though. I'm just waiting on some more feedback to come in.
 
holmes215

holmes215

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
I think the 7-oxygenated dhea metabolites are great stuff. I dont understand why anyone would wanna mess with dhea itself though, given the fact that it can yield estrogen related sides
Would natural anti-estrogens combat this?
 
JudgementDay

JudgementDay

Legend
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
Would natural anti-estrogens combat this?
Good question, I planned on stacking Transderm with Formestane or Androhard. I really liked Dermacrine, never tried 7oxo.....I'll have to look into it.
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

Featured Author
Awards
1
  • Established
I'll look into those. 7-oxo, yeah? I figured dhea was good stuff considering the wealth of dermacrine/transaderma users out there. I'll do some more research on it though before I come to a conclusion. I am considering purchasing that Ursobolic you're company has out though. I'm just waiting on some more feedback to come in.
there are many active 7-oxygenated dhea metabolites. 7-keto dhea, beta-AET, 7-hydroxy dhea are all currently sold as supps. There are others too, that as far as i know are not yet sold as supps. They all possess (to varying degrees) the thermogenic, immunostimulant, and anti-catabolic activities of DHEA without any of the sex hormone related concerns
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

Featured Author
Awards
1
  • Established
Would natural anti-estrogens combat this?
SERMs might, but AIs probably not so much. That is cuz most of DHEAs estrogenic potential is manifested through the metabolite 5-androstenediol, which is an non aromatic estrogenic substance. Blocking aromatase will do nothing to prevent its build up
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

Featured Author
Awards
1
  • Established
epistane gives me joint pain. oral dhea stops it completely.do u think this is from the estrogen conversion or something else? it isn't aggravating my gyno, yet.

the theory on estrogen depletion being responsible for joint pain is IMO very weak. I just cant buy it
 
mattrag

mattrag

Legend
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
Doesn't dhea help with body comp via having more test conversion via starting off higher on the hormonal cascade. I know this would lead to higher estrogen as well too but if all your ducks were
In a row wouldn't it partition more to testosterone? If not wouldn't dhea be a very bad supp to take for most young athletes with normal hormonal levels?
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

Featured Author
Awards
1
  • Established
Doesn't dhea help with body comp via having more test conversion via starting off higher on the hormonal cascade. I know this would lead to higher estrogen as well too but if all your ducks were
In a row wouldn't it partition more to testosterone? If not wouldn't dhea be a very bad supp to take for most young athletes with normal hormonal levels?
the research on dhea shows that it does not elevate testosterone effectively, even at quite high dosages.
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

Featured Author
Awards
1
  • Established
the research on dhea shows that it does not elevate testosterone effectively, even at quite high dosages.
the key enzymatic step - 3b-HSD 5,4 isomerase - just seems to be too tightly regulated to allow much conversion to take place
 
truthornothin

truthornothin

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
the key enzymatic step - 3b-HSD 5,4 isomerase - just seems to be too tightly regulated to allow much conversion to take place
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1999 Jun;84(6):2170-6.
Biotransformation of oral dehydroepiandrosterone in elderly men: significant increase in circulating estrogens.
Arlt W, Haas J, Callies F, Reincke M, Hübler D, Oettel M, Ernst M, Schulte HM, Allolio B.
Source
Department of Endocrinology, Medical University Hospital Wuerzburg, Germany.
Abstract
The most abundant human steroids, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and its sulfate ester DHEAS, may have a multitude of beneficial effects, but decline with age. DHEA possibly prevents immunosenescence, and as a neuroactive steroid it may influence processes of cognition and memory. Epidemiological studies revealed an inverse correlation between DHEAS levels and the incidence of cardiovascular disease in men, but not in women. To define a suitable dose for DHEA substitution in elderly men we studied pharmacokinetics and biotransformation of orally administered DHEA in 14 healthy male volunteers (mean age, 58.8 +/- 5.1 yr; mean body mass index, 25.5 +/- 1.5 kg/m2) with serum DHEAS concentrations below 4.1 micromol/L (1500 ng/mL). Diurnal blood sampling was performed on 3 occasions in a single dose, randomized, cross-over design (oral administration of placebo, 50 mg DHEA, or 100 mg DHEA). The intake of 50 mg DHEA led to an increase in serum DHEAS to mean levels of young adult men, whereas 100 mg DHEA induced supraphysiological concentrations [placebo vs. 50 mg DHEA vs. 100 mg DHEA; area under the curve (AUC) 0-12 h (mean +/- SD) for DHEA, 108 +/- 22 vs. 252 +/- 45 vs. 349 +/- 72 nmol/L x h; AUC 0-12 h for DHEAS, 33 +/- 9 vs. 114 +/- 19 vs. 164 +/- 36 micromol/L x h]. Serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone remained unchanged after DHEA administration. In contrast, 17beta-estradiol and estrone significantly increased in a dose-dependent manner to concentrations still within the upper normal range for men [placebo vs. 50 mg DHEA vs. 100 mg DHEA; AUC 0-12 h for 17beta-estradiol, 510 +/- 198 vs. 635 +/- 156 vs. 700 +/- 209 pmol/L x h (P < 0.0001); AUC 0-12 h for estrone, 1443 +/- 269 vs. 2537 +/- 434 vs. 3254 +/- 671 pmol/L x h (P < 0.0001)]. In conclusion, 50 mg DHEA seems to be a suitable substitution dose in elderly men, as it leads to serum DHEAS concentrations usually measured in young healthy adults. The DHEA-induced increase in circulating estrogens may contribute to beneficial effects of DHEA in men.

PMID: 10372727 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text
Publication Types, MeSH Terms, Substances
Looks like its much better at increasing estrogen than testosterone
 
freefall365

freefall365

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
So what's the deal then with the transdermal DHEA products everyone seems to rave about (dermacrine and RS-transaderm) ?

It seems like ppl are experiencing real world effects, but the logic in this thread would suggest it's not likely..
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

Featured Author
Awards
1
  • Established
Looks like its much better at increasing estrogen than testosterone

It seems very strange to me that it would increase estrogens without increasing testosterone. that is because it really has to go through testosterone (or adione) to get to estrone or estradiol. Maybe DHEA is upregulating aromatase expression? Anyway, it just doesnt seem like a good idea to mess with dhea if you are a dude.
 
flightposite

flightposite

Board Sponsor
Awards
1
  • Established
the theory on estrogen depletion being responsible for joint pain is IMO very weak. I just cant buy it
Why do ai's cause some peoples joints to hurt in your opinion I always thought it was estrogen related. Because the opposite is true when I'm on something like say bold.
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

Featured Author
Awards
1
  • Established
So what's the deal then with the transdermal DHEA products everyone seems to rave about (dermacrine and RS-transaderm) ?

It seems like ppl are experiencing real world effects, but the logic in this thread would suggest it's not likely..

these products contain other ingredients, no?
 
flightposite

flightposite

Board Sponsor
Awards
1
  • Established
these products contain other ingredients, no?

Active Ingredients:

Active ingredients per 5 pumps

DHEA ? 72mg
7,8-Benzoflavone (99%) ? 36mg
Resveratrol (99%) ? 36mg
Pregnenolone - 18mg
Chrysin (99%) ? 9mg
 
flightposite

flightposite

Board Sponsor
Awards
1
  • Established
7,8 Benzoflavone (36mg), Resveratrol (36mg), Pregnenolone (18mg), and Chrysin (9mg) are also included. Would these ingredients counter any negative effects of DHEA?
Beat me to it. :)
 
mattrag

mattrag

Legend
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
Very intriguing. I will be running a log on RS transaderm. I hope I don't turn into a girl. Lol.

Might this be a good supp to run along something suppressive though? Like as a base? Bring something good on the lower end of the hormone cascade and replenish top end at the dhea level to keep hormones up? Though I read that dhea will keep libido up, and libido is primarily estrogen related... Meh I'm no endocrinologist :(
 
Sourdough

Sourdough

Well-known member
Awards
0
why are you using dhea anyway?
ha this has been my sentiments exactly regarding all these DHEA products...

4-DHEA, 1-DHEA, those are different... but come on.... whos out there really buying up DHEA at 50-60 bucks a bottle when you can get grams of the stuff in powder for a few dollars and it will still be just as pointless unless your in a severely deficient hormonal state.... in that case you should be on TRT anyways.
 
Sourdough

Sourdough

Well-known member
Awards
0
you want a test base then get test or a directly converting prohormone to test.... DHEA is not that and has so many other metabolites and down stream effects that cant be fully mitigated by other "checks and balances" to be worth while.

Look into a few of the products out now containing 4-AD(hea) or get some real test.
 
freefall365

freefall365

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
this is a very interesting topic. Sourdough you ask "who's really out there buying up DHEA anyway" and the answer is tons of ppl swear buy such DHEA products.

I know ppl who train and ran dermacrine who definitely achieved tighter/denser muscle mass (albeit not drastic but seemingly real effects) and reported hightened sense of well being. I know without bloodwork such a experience is hard to quantify, but still... Makes one wonder where this suggested increase of male hormone came from if DHEA really isn't for guys as is suggested.
 
jwa254

jwa254

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
this is a very interesting topic. Sourdough you ask "who's really out there buying up DHEA anyway" and the answer is tons of ppl swear buy such DHEA products.

I know ppl who train and ran dermacrine who definitely achieved tighter/denser muscle mass (albeit not drastic but seemingly real effects) and reported hightened sense of well being. I know without bloodwork such a experience is hard to quantify, but still... Makes one wonder where this suggested increase of male hormone came from if DHEA really isn't for guys as is suggested.
Agreed. This is just perplexing. I realize there are other ingredients aside from DHEA in these products like dermacrine and transaderm, but there's no way those ingredients alone counterbalance these seemingly negative impacts of DHEA AND contribute to muscle mass.

*shrugs* ah well.
 
Sourdough

Sourdough

Well-known member
Awards
0
Sourdough

Sourdough

Well-known member
Awards
0
this is a very interesting topic. Sourdough you ask "who's really out there buying up DHEA anyway" and the answer is tons of ppl swear buy such DHEA products.

I know ppl who train and ran dermacrine who definitely achieved tighter/denser muscle mass (albeit not drastic but seemingly real effects) and reported hightened sense of well being. I know without bloodwork such a experience is hard to quantify, but still... Makes one wonder where this suggested increase of male hormone came from if DHEA really isn't for guys as is suggested.
I wasn't asking any such question????

I know plenty if people run dhea.... To what end result besides "feeling better" idk and neither do they unless they get bloods done....

Theirs tons of studies available showing it increases estrogen CONSIDERABLY and does a fairly poor job at increasing testosterone.

My previous statement stands that 4-dhea is a different story and what guys should be running... I def wouldn't be spending 60 bucks on dhea, res, preg and chrysin.... Dhea is CHEAP, td carriers are CHEAP.... idk why these products are so expensive and aren't anything special.....

4-dhea is even fairly over priced in the forms that its available right now

Point is moot anyhow, I have some good old 4ad powder still stocked up.
 
mattrag

mattrag

Legend
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
I wasn't asking any such question????

I know plenty if people run dhea.... To what end result besides "feeling better" idk and neither do they unless they get bloods done....

Theirs tons of studies available showing it increases estrogen CONSIDERABLY and does a fairly poor job at increasing testosterone.

My previous statement stands that 4-dhea is a different story and what guys should be running... I def wouldn't be spending 60 bucks on dhea, res, preg and chrysin.... Dhea is CHEAP, td carriers are CHEAP.... idk why these products are so expensive and aren't anything special.....

4-dhea is even fairly over priced in the forms that its available right now

Point is moot anyhow, I have some good old 4ad powder still stocked up.
Omg 4ad....
 
schizm

schizm

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Would natural anti-estrogens combat this?
SERMs might, but AIs probably not so much. That is cuz most of DHEAs estrogenic potential is manifested through the metabolite 5-androstenediol, which is an non aromatic estrogenic substance. Blocking aromatase will do nothing to prevent its build up
Def good convo in here...PA, ATD being pretty potent (which If I'm not mistaken, binds to the site of the aromatase enzyme & renders it inactive)...would you think 25mg/day would be the next best thing to a SERM....or not so much?
 
Sourdough

Sourdough

Well-known member
Awards
0
Def good convo in here...PA, ATD being pretty potent (which If I'm not mistaken, binds to the site of the aromatase enzyme & renders it inactive)...would you think 25mg/day would be the next best thing to a SERM....or not so much?
I would doubt so... Its still not blocking anything at the ER itself. That's what is absolutely essential to block dhea's estrogenic effects since dhea and a few of its metabolites have direct interactions with the ER and no amount of aromatase blocking will stop those interactions.

In fact in a study I just read....

http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf

It shows that males administered 50mg for DHEA 6 days in a TD gel showed no significant increased in either estrogen OR testosterone, just dhea and its metabolite dheas.... Until they did the follow up blood draws 5 weeks after ceasing the dose.

This showed a 50% increase in testosterone had occurred from the downstream cascade of enzymatic conversions from dhea built up in the body.... One could only assume this number would increase if dose was increased and prolonged beyond 6 days just like in a typical cycle.

This would all be good and fine, except for one thing. Estrogen also had an increase in those 5 weeks after only 6 days of dhea administration.... 300% over baseline values..... Imagine what a 4-8 week cycle would yield?

Not exactly ideal.

This also adds a new worry of wether or not if even a 4 week SERM based pct would be adequate considering the build up of dhea and constant downstream conversions that would occur weeks after a cycle.....

So yes one could run a SERM through their 4-8 week cycle to prevent negative interactions but would also have to continue to run it weeks beyond a normal length pct and would prob be well suited to run an AI along the entire run as well so once the SERM is ceased there isn't just a flood of estrogen waiting to bombard the unlocked receptors.... So much for liver friendliness at that point.
 
JudgementDay

JudgementDay

Legend
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
^Great post and info in this thread, I will be staying away from dhea for now on.
 
mattrag

mattrag

Legend
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
I would doubt so... Its still not blocking anything at the ER itself. That's what is absolutely essential to block dhea's estrogenic effects since dhea and a few of its metabolites have direct interactions with the ER and no amount of aromatase blocking will stop those interactions.

In fact in a study I just read....

http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf

It shows that males administered 50mg for DHEA 6 days in a TD gel showed no significant increased in either estrogen OR testosterone, just dhea and its metabolite dheas.... Until they did the follow up blood draws 5 weeks after ceasing the dose.

This showed a 50% increase in testosterone had occurred from the downstream cascade of enzymatic conversions from dhea built up in the body.... One could only assume this number would increase if dose was increased and prolonged beyond 6 days just like in a typical cycle.

This would all be good and fine, except for one thing. Estrogen also had an increase in those 5 weeks after only 6 days of dhea administration.... 300% over baseline values..... Imagine what a 4-8 week cycle would yield?

Not exactly ideal.

This also adds a new worry of wether or not if even a 4 week SERM based pct would be adequate considering the build up of dhea and constant downstream conversions that would occur weeks after a cycle.....

So yes one could run a SERM through their 4-8 week cycle to prevent negative interactions but would also have to continue to run it weeks beyond a normal length pct and would prob be well suited to run an AI along the entire run as well so once the SERM is ceased there isn't just a flood of estrogen waiting to bombard the unlocked receptors.... So much for liver friendliness at that point.
Holy crap.
I think I'll be picking up some estrogen control for my cycle of transaderm.
 
jwa254

jwa254

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I would doubt so... Its still not blocking anything at the ER itself. That's what is absolutely essential to block dhea's estrogenic effects since dhea and a few of its metabolites have direct interactions with the ER and no amount of aromatase blocking will stop those interactions.

In fact in a study I just read....

http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/49/49_685.pdf

It shows that males administered 50mg for DHEA 6 days in a TD gel showed no significant increased in either estrogen OR testosterone, just dhea and its metabolite dheas.... Until they did the follow up blood draws 5 weeks after ceasing the dose.

This showed a 50% increase in testosterone had occurred from the downstream cascade of enzymatic conversions from dhea built up in the body.... One could only assume this number would increase if dose was increased and prolonged beyond 6 days just like in a typical cycle.

This would all be good and fine, except for one thing. Estrogen also had an increase in those 5 weeks after only 6 days of dhea administration.... 300% over baseline values..... Imagine what a 4-8 week cycle would yield?

Not exactly ideal.

This also adds a new worry of wether or not if even a 4 week SERM based pct would be adequate considering the build up of dhea and constant downstream conversions that would occur weeks after a cycle.....

So yes one could run a SERM through their 4-8 week cycle to prevent negative interactions but would also have to continue to run it weeks beyond a normal length pct and would prob be well suited to run an AI along the entire run as well so once the SERM is ceased there isn't just a flood of estrogen waiting to bombard the unlocked receptors.... So much for liver friendliness at that point.
Definitely informative. However, it should probably be noted this was just with DHEA, right?

I went and did some more searching and found this quote from a Dermacrine write-up:

"Still, DHEA and Pregnenolone can eventually convert to estrogen through interaction with the aromatase enzyme (CYP 19). Excessive estrogen can inhibit the hypothalamus pituitary testicular axis (HTPA), and increase fat deposits and water retention41. Fortunately, Dermacrine limits estrogen synthesis by including the Phyto Aromatase Inhibitor (Phyto AI) complex, consisting of three potent plant based aromatase inhibitors, namely 7,8 Benzoflavone, Chrysin and resveratrol.42,43 These flavonoids directly compete with aromatizing androgens for interaction with the aromatase enzyme as well as inhibit the production of the aromatase enzyme itself.44,45 As a result, estrogen is kept down , and the steroidogenic enzymes are kept up, therefore making Dermcrine one complete hormone rejuvenator."

So the Benzoflavone, Chrysin, and resveratrol supposedly keep the estrogen down. Thoughts?
 
Sourdough

Sourdough

Well-known member
Awards
0
Definitely informative. However, it should probably be noted this was just with DHEA, right?

I went and did some more searching and found this quote from a Dermacrine write-up:

"Still, DHEA and Pregnenolone can eventually convert to estrogen through interaction with the aromatase enzyme (CYP 19). Excessive estrogen can inhibit the hypothalamus pituitary testicular axis (HTPA), and increase fat deposits and water retention41. Fortunately, Dermacrine limits estrogen synthesis by including the Phyto Aromatase Inhibitor (Phyto AI) complex, consisting of three potent plant based aromatase inhibitors, namely 7,8 Benzoflavone, Chrysin and resveratrol.42,43 These flavonoids directly compete with aromatizing androgens for interaction with the aromatase enzyme as well as inhibit the production of the aromatase enzyme itself.44,45 As a result, estrogen is kept down , and the steroidogenic enzymes are kept up, therefore making Dermcrine one complete hormone rejuvenator."

So the Benzoflavone, Chrysin, and resveratrol supposedly keep the estrogen down. Thoughts?
To what degree is def the question... Ive never been sold on Res ability to block estrogen at the receptor, theres a reason why Chrysin isnt used and suggested as a go to AI for on cycle use and Im actually completely unfamiliar with benzoflavones effects on estrogen or aromatase.... Really this point is still moot considering the direct interactions with the ER that DHEA and its metabolites can have where aromatase inhibition will count for nothing....

Id still be interested in an unbiased 3rd parties blood results from such as one of these products.... again this would at least give comparative results to the previously quoted study for E levels but wouldnt give real world effects considering estrogen isnt the only one creating estrogenic effects here.


IMO as well there is still much to be worried about regarding the build up of DHEA, DHEAS, Androstenedione in the body which for many weeks after the cessation of DHEA will still be converting to estrogen.... There wont be any of these products(C, R, B) in the blood stream at this point in time, an outside sourced AI and SERM would have to be used (admittedly this should be the case anyways for any complete PCT) but for how long compared to a normal PCT is the question.... no one wants to use a SERM for PCT and after the fact get "rebound gyno" cause est receptors are suddenly getting swamped... this would require an AI to be ran as well... all a bit much just so people can "effectively" run DHEA as a prohormone to Test..

Personally, again, I think that 4-DHEA is a much more suitable hormone and I dont know why it isnt used in place of standard DHEA..... again there is the cost factor as well.... both dermacrine and Transaderm are ludicrously over priced for DHEA regardless of what else is included.
 
rebelhead

rebelhead

Banned
Awards
0
Definitely informative. However, it should probably be noted this was just with DHEA, right?

I went and did some more searching and found this quote from a Dermacrine write-up:

"Still, DHEA and Pregnenolone can eventually convert to estrogen through interaction with the aromatase enzyme (CYP 19). Excessive estrogen can inhibit the hypothalamus pituitary testicular axis (HTPA), and increase fat deposits and water retention41. Fortunately, Dermacrine limits estrogen synthesis by including the Phyto Aromatase Inhibitor (Phyto AI) complex, consisting of three potent plant based aromatase inhibitors, namely 7,8 Benzoflavone, Chrysin and resveratrol.42,43 These flavonoids directly compete with aromatizing androgens for interaction with the aromatase enzyme as well as inhibit the production of the aromatase enzyme itself.44,45 As a result, estrogen is kept down , and the steroidogenic enzymes are kept up, therefore making Dermcrine one complete hormone rejuvenator."

So the Benzoflavone, Chrysin, and resveratrol supposedly keep the estrogen down. Thoughts?
plant based Ai's are probably worthless in the real world. they require fairly large doses to have any effect and i seriously doubt a transdermal carrier could carry the amount necessary to achieve an effect in the body. resveratrol is good for u but taking it to keep from gettin gyno is comical. from personal experience, oral chrysin is garbage and i dont know about the benzoflavone.
 
jwa254

jwa254

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Yeah it's seeming to appear like a toss up as to whether these ingredients do their job or not.

I'm glad I posted this thread as it seems to have brought up some great points. The only thing that has me still going, for lack of better words, "WTF?" is how much people enjoy Dermacrine and Transaderm. I feel like if a product boosted estrogen 300% that it wouldn't exactly be the cat's meow.

Perhaps, someone could shed some light on how well these Natural AIs actually do their job (statistically).
 
rebelhead

rebelhead

Banned
Awards
0
hell, they may be putting real testosterone it that transdermal stuff and selling it. that's why people like it so much. stranger things have happened.
 
jwa254

jwa254

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
hell, they may be putting real testosterone it that transdermal stuff and selling it. that's why people like it so much. stranger things have happened.
Haha, well sadly, you can never rule out anything nowadays.
 

Mixelflick

Active member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
In regards to topical DHEA products like Dermacrine and Transaderm, when one applies a product like the aforementioned to the chest/abs is there really a higher conversion rate to estrogen? I've read this in a few places and was unsure of the validity. I understand that the products are intended to be applied to the shoulder/upper back mainly but both products, if I am not mistaken, have an application area on the bottle that covers the chest.

Thanks.
Estrogen conversion is largely a function of the androgen in question, and enzymes conversion rates. Individual differences are present, but in my experience and in every bit of feedback I've seen on finished products/homebrews (including my own bloodwork) - there's little issue in the case of TOPICAL DHEA. Orally, it's a WHOLE 'nother story.

In any case, getting enough of it into circulation is job #1. In this respect, you'll see the term "flux" showing up over, in the trandermal literature. This simply refers to the amount of surface area the product is spread across/over. Yes, some areas of the body have thinner/thicker skin covering such, but PE's (penetration enhancers) should be included to address. The gold standard is DMSO, but prude that the FDA is - they take a dim view of such. You might spill an oz. or two by accident, into your topical. It's unfortunate but happens. The world is frought with hazard, given all the multi-tasking that goes on today.

ONE CAVEAT: DMSO (with the exception of the incredibly rare "odorless" variety PA once sold), stinks to high heaven. Accordingly, I spill at least 2-3 oz. of D-Limonene (constituent of orange/citrus peel) into the diabolical mix. It's an excellent PE enhancer, and has a pleasant citrus likesmell.

Mistakes happen, so be on the lookout for them. Hope that helps... :)
 
andrew732

andrew732

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Yeah bro I only recommend taking it once a week if you want a boost in DHEA, and I tell people to make sure to run it with an AI. Mag oil is a safer alternative.
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

Featured Author
Awards
1
  • Established
Why do ai's cause some peoples joints to hurt in your opinion I always thought it was estrogen related. Because the opposite is true when I'm on something like say bold.

they can cause body pain in women. if there is a connection it probably is related to inflammatory mediators, and not "dryness" as people like to put it
 
BigBlackGuy

BigBlackGuy

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
I'll be honest, I cant go above 2 sprays of dermacrine or take oral 5-dhea without (AFTER THE FIRST DOSE) feeling itchy nips. This is even with androhard and/or an AI. Never tried it with a SERM, there's no point to do so in my mind.
 
rebelhead

rebelhead

Banned
Awards
0
they can cause body pain in women. if there is a connection it probably is related to inflammatory mediators, and not "dryness" as people like to put it
i agree. the joint pain i experience from epistane feels like the "i worked 12 hours yesterday" kind of pain. probably inflamation also.
 

Similar threads


Top