Dr. D... your thoughts on TUDCA for AAS/DS use

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    Dr. D... your thoughts on TUDCA for AAS/DS use


    What are your thoughts on Tauroursodeoxycholic acid (TUDCA)? Most of us here take NaC for liver support, but TUDCA seems to be a lot less talked about, if ever. Last i checked, it seemed as though the verdict was that it was in a grey area. Maybe you could shed some light on this? Much appreciated.
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    In for info as well.
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    Perhaps worthy of adding to this discussion is Tumeric/Curcumin which also stimulates bile production (same mechanism TUDCA utilizes to assist with liver detox)....with MANY more health benefits to boot!

    TUDCA supports bile flow to remove these toxic metabolites from the liver. In this way, TUDCA protects you against cholestasis to ensure cholesterol metabolism. Because TUDCA ensures that you’re breaking down fat, it helps to prevent fatty liver disease. It also protects the liver against cell death. Not only do you get liver protection, but you’ve got a built in cholesterol fighter when you take TUDCA.
    As an anti-oxidant turmeric works similarly to vitamins C and E, indeed turmeric is said to be as powerful an anti-oxidant as those two vitamins. As such it provides excellent protection to our cells against damage caused by oxygen carrying free radicals. In conjunction with the oil curcumin, turmeric acts as an anti-inflammatory if applied as a poultice or if used orally. The combined effects of being an anti-inflammatory and an anti-oxidant mean that it will also increase the secretion of bile and the production of enzymes in the liver. Subsequently, it will help to protect the liver from a build up of toxins. Finally the curcumin associated with turmeric is thought to stimulate the body’s natural production of cortisone from the adrenal glands, which will generally help the body to self-heal.
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    TUDAC is a staple 4 every 17a cycle IMO
    Liver enxymes stay close to baseline even with heavy oral use. And the taurine molecule seems to help the B pumps
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    Jake from Antaeus on this topic of liver protection

    http://antaeuslabs.blogspot.com/2011...f-17a.html?m=1
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    Dude nailed it IMO. Thanks for the post

    Quote Originally Posted by tekno View Post
    Jake from Antaeus on this topic of liver protection

    http://antaeuslabs.blogspot.com/2011...f-17a.html?m=1
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    glad i came across this post, was worried about my liver and was thnking of getting this but wasnt sure. im gonna order some for sure now. im running promag and i think this will be a good addition
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    Don't count Milk Thistle out just yet...

    Hepatoprotective effects of silymarin in androgenic-anabolic steroid-induced liver damage.

    Abstract


    INTRODUCTION:

    The use and abuse of anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) commonly induces liver damage.
    MATERIAL AND METHODS:

    The study included 40 male Wistar rats, divided into 4 groups of 10 rats each. Animals in the first experimental group (M), were subjected to progressive systematic forced swimming test, 5 days a week, during 8 weeks. Animals in this group were treated with AAS methandienone, 2 mg/kg BW/day, per os, before swimming, 5 d/w for 8 weeks. After swimming, animals were given three times more food than the laboratory animals of the same age and kind. Animals in the second group (M+S), were subjected to progressive forced swimming test, 5 d/w 8 weeks. Animals in this group were treated with methandienone equally as the experimental group M and received the same amount of food. Apart from that, they received silymarin 20 mg/kg BW/day. Animals in the third group (K), represented the control group, which was neither subjected to swimming test, nor treated with methandienone or silymarin. Animals in this group received the same amount of food as animals in groups M and M+S. Animals in the fourth group (C), also represented a control. This group was not exercised nor treated, and animals received a standard amount of food for laboratory animals of this kind and age. Quantitative analysis of obtained hemataxylin-eosin, periodic acid shift and enzymohistochemical preparations was processed using Digital Image Analysis System: Microimage 3.0.
    RESULTS:

    It was established that processes in the nuclei of animals in groups M and K were significantly more intensive (p<0.001) in relation to groups M+S and C. The investigation of glycogen showed significantly higher density in the cells of groups M and M+S in comparison to groups K and C. Also, there was a significant difference between groups M+S and M. Density of enzyme activity of glutamate dehydrogenase in hepatocytes of animals in the group M+S was significantly higher in relation to the remaining three groups. A statistically significant difference was not found in enzyme activity of succinate dehydrogenase and lactate dehydrogenase.
    DISCUSSION:

    In cell nuclei of animals in the experimental group M, in the absence of silymarin effect, methandienone causes damages which induce regenerative processes and in this way increase high intensity activity. Silymarin significantly increases the glycogen density in hepatocytes. Increased activities of GDH are attributed to cell vitality.
    CONCLUSION:

    The present results show hepatoprotective effects of silymarin in androgenic-anabolic steroid induced liver damage.

    PMID:15510919
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Don't count Milk Thistle out just yet...
    i could feel the strain that my oh was causing on my liver so i ordered the TUDCA, but i also started taking the ai life support with my first and last meal and an extra milk thistle mid day. you cant really ever tell by feel but it definately seems to be working well. once i get the TUDCA can i just take them with my life supoirt in the morning and at night? that was my plan
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    I've always been very happy with Liver Assist XT from SNS, NAC and milk thistle. But for stronger cycles i was really looking in to TUDCA. Seems as though now it's basically gone off the net. Can't find it anywhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    PM's
    We are having an UDCA/TUDCA discussion over on the anabolic board, some great stuff going on there.'

    I didn't realize that Antaeus Labs had a prodcut with TUDCA and PPC in it, looks good if those two ingredients synergistically work together. TUDCA dose for 2 caps of Aegis is only 250mg, which is low, unless PPC really helps out.

    UDCA seems obtainable from those pharma clone sites, but i've always stayed away from them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhadam View Post
    We are having an UDCA/TUDCA discussion over on the anabolic board, some great stuff going on there.'

    I didn't realize that Antaeus Labs had a prodcut with TUDCA and PPC in it, looks good if those two ingredients synergistically work together. TUDCA dose for 2 caps of Aegis is only 250mg, which is low, unless PPC really helps out.

    UDCA seems obtainable from those pharma clone sites, but i've always stayed away from them.
    Thats why they put 120 caps in a bottle. So you get 500mgs of the TUDCA a day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    Thats why they put 120 caps in a bottle. So you get 500mgs of the TUDCA a day.
    Odd. The site i ordered from (legit site) has is mis-labeled then. Saw 60 caps per bottle. This is fantastic news.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhadam View Post
    UDCA seems obtainable from those pharma clone sites, but i've always stayed away from them.
    Not sure why...I used online pharmacy ursodiol, couldn't have been happier. Cheap and very effective.
    Just inject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Yes He sure was, then, He rose again on the third day.

    Praise Jesus!

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    Amen brother!
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    .....

    Where is DrD?
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    I think it is promising; however, TUDCA is frankly underdosed in most supplements. Best liver effects are seen in GRAM dosages; especially acutely where there is a significant dose-response relationship (and estimated to only begin efficacy at greater than 11mg/kg or - for ease - the average 220 lb bodybuilder or 100 kg for ease needs about 1.1 grams acutely) for hepatobiliary disease like cholestatic pictures of C17-alpha-alkylated PH/PS/DS/AAS.

    From a chronic perspective (where some people take orals - defined as probably greater than 8-12 weeks),

    A 2 gram per day (in two divided 1gram doses) trial was just concluded this month...http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00877604

    Why? Because smaller doses were simply ineffective.

    So - if not cost-prohibitory to you...then why not? But I would make certain that most on this board are getting anywhere from 1-2 grams per day orally if you chose to embark upon this as your hepatoprotectant of choice.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    .....

    Where is DrD?
    Would love to say I have nothing else going on, but...



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    haha!!!!!!!!!!! I can only imagine

    GREAT to see you back Doc!
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    so what is the most effective liver protectant product in your view?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    so what is the most effective liver protectant product in your view?
    Abstinence.
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    Im going to give it a shot... going to run it along side my organ shield...
    $40 to save my liver is pennies in my eyes...
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    so what is the most effective liver protectant product in your view?
    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    Abstinence.
    I like that

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    so what is the most effective liver protectant product in your view?
    TUDCA + NAC + silymarin
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    TUDCA + NAC + silymarin
    Ursodiol 300mg BID + Aegis 2 caps BID + 1 Gallon H20 a day = I should have just bought more Urso...

    Maybe I will half my Ursodiol dose and stack with Aegis since I am the proud owner of an opened bottle. I do commend Antaeus for making a not complete garbage liver support supplement (that's a long list), but UDCA 600mg/day is hard to beat. Let the body conjugate it with taurine or glycine and save money. Or...

    Test IM + Tren IM + hCG + Aromasin = orals not necessary, nor liver support (IME)
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbhick3 View Post
    Ursodiol 300mg BID + Aegis 2 caps BID + 1 Gallon H20 a day = I should have just bought more Urso...

    Maybe I will half my Ursodiol dose and stack with Aegis since I am the proud owner of an opened bottle. I do commend Antaeus for making a not complete garbage liver support supplement (that's a long list), but UDCA 600mg/day is hard to beat. Let the body conjugate it with taurine or glycine and save money. Or...

    Test IM + Tren IM + hCG + Aromasin = orals not necessary, nor liver support (IME)
    Ursodiol has been my choice as of late as well, and I really don't see a reason to choose otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Ursodiol has been my choice as of late as well, and I really don't see a reason to choose otherwise.
    Having tried them all but Aegis solo, and with bloodwork for all, I have to agree.

    @H2S-if Aegis + 600mg/day of UDCA adds additional value by way of keeping my TA's in the sub 3x ULN range, I'd pay the extra cost. I've thought of trying 900mg/day of UDCA, but I think side effects may become more of an issue at that level, and that is pushing $2 a day as well. Most seem to be able to gobble down Superdrol and similar without any issues though, so UDCA solo for most would likely be the best choice for 17aa collateral damage control (HDL notwithstanding).

    Ursodiol - less filler, tastes great*

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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Ursodiol has been my choice as of late as well, and I really don't see a reason to choose otherwise.
    Ursodiol? Havnt heard of that, i 'spose ill have to look it up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbhick3 View Post
    Having tried them all but Aegis solo, and with bloodwork for all, I have to agree.

    @H2S-if Aegis + 600mg/day of UDCA adds additional value by way of keeping my TA's in the sub 3x ULN range, I'd pay the extra cost. I've thought of trying 900mg/day of UDCA, but I think side effects may become more of an issue at that level, and that is pushing $2 a day as well. Most seem to be able to gobble down Superdrol and similar without any issues though, so UDCA solo for most would likely be the best choice for 17aa collateral damage control (HDL notwithstanding).

    Ursodiol - less filler, tastes great*

    *I lied
    Agreed on all fronts, except for the bolded lie, lol. My first run of it utilized an RC preparation in powder form, caps are definitely more appropriate...
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    Ursodiol? Havnt heard of that, i 'spose ill have to look it up.
    Ursodiol is Ursodeoxycholic Acid = UDCA.
    Just inject.
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    What sides from UDCA & TUDCA?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    so what is the most effective liver protectant product in your view?
    If this was directed at me and we are really talking "any expense;" the versatility of that added by SAMe + BCAAs is surely superior and you get MUCH, MUCH more collective efficacy on other pathologies during an oral C17AA cycle. Nothing wrong, however, with NAC (although studies haven't really shown a lot of ORAL superiority and efficacy for things outside of tylenol toxicity when really looking at toxicology data) or Milk Thistle (provided you can actually get a good Silymarin concentration / labeling is incorrect in 95% of cases). I also am a fan of LOLA, but good quantities of this can also get expensive.


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    Good question

    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    What sides from UDCA & TUDCA?
    A-Minds HYPE-SLAYER! All posts & feedback are guaranteed to be unsolicited and legit
    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom & instruction"
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii

    If this was directed at me and we are really talking "any expense;" the versatility of that added by SAMe + BCAAs is surely superior and you get MUCH, MUCH more collective efficacy on other pathologies during an oral C17AA cycle. Nothing wrong, however, with NAC (although studies haven't really shown a lot of ORAL superiority and efficacy for things outside of tylenol toxicity when really looking at toxicology data) or Milk Thistle (provided you can actually get a good Silymarin concentration / labeling is incorrect in 95% of cases). I also am a fan of LOLA, but good quantities of this can also get expensive.

    D_
    What kind of SAMe dosage are we talkin?
    Everything I say is fictional and for entertainment purposes only. Do not ask me for sources. I dont have any.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stankyleg View Post
    What kind of SAMe dosage are we talkin?
    I'll help D_ out as I'm sure he's pretty busy as usual. write up: http://*******/KOvGxF dosage: http://*******/NukQUS Couldn't find the link to where he tested brands, but I know this is on the list, it's what I take, and honestly, I just take 1 pill/day (400mg active) pretty much all the time (on, pct, whenever) for all the benefits, since it's so cheap. Now, I honestly never worry about my liver, even run 8 wk long double methyls are strong dosages and my values always come back right in range whenver I check. I had my father dose 2/day (800mg active) for a month after he got diagnosed with a fatty liver from drinking too much, and his fatty liver went away and his values went back in range... and while he cut back I think, he didn't even quit drinking. So yea, I'm a SAMe fan.
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    im starting my aegis a week before i start my pmag. Should i not also supplement AI lifesupport (which has nac and milk thistle)? i wasnt sure if itd be too much and should just take a aegis.
  

  
 

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