Post-workout carbs.

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    Post-workout carbs.


    Dr. Houser,

    I know you think CHOs are the bastardized macronutrient of the century, but do they have benefit when used to inhibit proteolysis, among other things, i.e., glycogen mediated cell swelling, strictly in the post workout realm?

    Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment post exercise muscle protein synthesis

    Key points from study above:

    1. Though skeletal muscle protein breakdown rates were not assessed, the study observed lower plasma and muscle BCAA levels when CHOs were co-ingested, the latter suggesting that protein breakdown was reduced.

    2. Even though ingestion of only carbohydrates does not seem to stimulate post-exercise muscle protein synthesis, it has been reported to improve net protein balance by inhibiting muscle protein breakdown.

    I guess what I'm asking is if you think carbs + whey + leucine > whey + leucine, strictly in the post workout setting, for the trainee looking to make the greatest net gains in muscle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xcyte View Post
    Dr. Houser,

    I know you think CHOs are the bastardized macronutrient of the century, but do they have benefit when used to inhibit proteolysis, among other things, i.e., glycogen mediated cell swelling, strictly in the post workout realm?

    Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment post exercise muscle protein synthesis

    Key points from study above:

    1. Though skeletal muscle protein breakdown rates were not assessed, the study observed lower plasma and muscle BCAA levels when CHOs were co-ingested, the latter suggesting that protein breakdown was reduced.

    2. Even though ingestion of only carbohydrates does not seem to stimulate post-exercise muscle protein synthesis, it has been reported to improve net protein balance by inhibiting muscle protein breakdown.

    I guess what I'm asking is if you think carbs + whey + leucine > whey + leucine, strictly in the post workout setting, for the trainee looking to make the greatest net gains in muscle.
    IF just focusing on your last question; one can look at this in two ways:

    (1) Greatest net gains in muscle (without attention to whole body composition...ie. - welcoming simultaneous fat gain at the hopes of making a nominal difference)

    -or-

    (2) Greatest net gains in muscle (with attention to whole body composition...ie. - staving off simultaneous fat gain)



    I hope you see where I am going with this.

    IF aesthetics are the primary concern (and I presume they are); then this isn't as simple as saying "Me want muscle at all costs" (my best caveman or Frankenstein voice)! IF athletics are the primary concern (mind you, the two do NOT have to be mutually exclusive as better aesthetics oftentimes yields better athletics)...same idea!

    I do NOT (and this is worth repeating as I fear some have interpreted my writing in a way that was unintended) personally bastardize the carbohydrate. In fact, I think glycogen (storage carb) can be modulated according to goals (hence my support of macronutrient cycling being superior to any kind of bastardization - and there are a lot of hormonal rationale as well - i.e. - thyroid, etc...). BUT, at the same time...I fear carbohydrates have offered supplement manufacturers a "way out." Jesus - if you want carbs (to use to your advantage)...then EAT them. They are VERY cheap and act as a wonderful "filler."

    Are they "needed?" Absolutely NOT! There is not an ounce of evidence to suggest they are needed or essential. There is evidence to suggest, however, that when completely eliminating a macronutrient, you do put yourself at risk on the micronutrient level (namely low carb diets SUCK in terms of B Vitamins and subsequent cardiovascular health). And we can tie in so many other topics on this subforum here:

    B Vitamin supplementation and anti-oxidants like Vitamin C need be supplemented at virtually ALL meals. Yes, I said ALL. They are water-soluble and you are constantly oxidizing things (and this includes oxidation by simple eating, hence the need for a nice antioxidant like Vitamin C; BUT keep in mind that 500 mg per sitting should be the upper limit dose as we do start seeing an optimization curve evolve with too much Vitamin C being a PRO-oxidant) and requiring B Vitamins for almost every reaction to move forward (and this includes protein synthesis...BUT also staving off things like elevations in homocysteine). Now, there is the theoretic risk that some B vitamins (when used in excess) can increase the risk of cancer (you were seeking increased growth afterall). Keep in mind, that things like Vitamin B6 (in any form) and other things involved in DNA replication - you do need to watch, BUT when talking Maximum Muscle Protein Synthesis - you need B Vitamins to drive those reactions home.

    So - you want to stave off muscle-wasting to the best of your ability? You want to minimize fat gain or maximize its loss? You want to look better naked at the end of the day...simple rules and they should be followed religiously - if you want the best info I can offer:

    1) Leucine, Leucine, Leucine to yield 25% of your total amino pool (maximum muscle protein synthesis)
    2) B Vitamins (coingested at virtually every meal to drive every reaction in the body; remember ... we are dealing with water-soluble elements, so you never know...just like it is the case with amino acids when they each will be called upon...things are constantly in a state of flux within the body).
    3) Vitamin C (coingested at virtually every meal - there is IMO about a 500mg upper limit in a single sitting AND the two times I would potentially avoid Vitamin C is 2 hours pre-workout and 2 hours post-workout...this is to allow for inflammatory cytokines to induce microscopic changes)
    4) Carbs (not necessarily bastardizing, but unneeded element for both aesthetics and athletics...NOW...this is not to suggest there wouldn't be benefit to a cyclical use of them for hormonal reasons well beyond the scope of this post; in fact, it is likely whole-heartedly superior).
    5) Coenzyme Q10 (please see thread about it in this subforum...it's support of muscle fiber type as well as attenuating muscle breakdown is possibly the most quintessential thing that you can ever learn here).



    D_
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    IF just focusing on your last question; one can look at this in two ways:

    (1) Greatest net gains in muscle (without attention to whole body composition...ie. - welcoming simultaneous fat gain at the hopes of making a nominal difference)

    -or-

    (2) Greatest net gains in muscle (with attention to whole body composition...ie. - staving off simultaneous fat gain)



    I hope you see where I am going with this.

    IF aesthetics are the primary concern (and I presume they are); then this isn't as simple as saying "Me want muscle at all costs" (my best caveman or Frankenstein voice)! IF athletics are the primary concern (mind you, the two do NOT have to be mutually exclusive as better aesthetics oftentimes yields better athletics)...same idea!

    I do NOT (and this is worth repeating as I fear some have interpreted my writing in a way that was unintended) personally bastardize the carbohydrate. In fact, I think glycogen (storage carb) can be modulated according to goals (hence my support of macronutrient cycling being superior to any kind of bastardization - and there are a lot of hormonal rationale as well - i.e. - thyroid, etc...). BUT, at the same time...I fear carbohydrates have offered supplement manufacturers a "way out." Jesus - if you want carbs (to use to your advantage)...then EAT them. They are VERY cheap and act as a wonderful "filler."

    Are they "needed?" Absolutely NOT! There is not an ounce of evidence to suggest they are needed or essential. There is evidence to suggest, however, that when completely eliminating a macronutrient, you do put yourself at risk on the micronutrient level (namely low carb diets SUCK in terms of B Vitamins and subsequent cardiovascular health). And we can tie in so many other topics on this subforum here:

    B Vitamin supplementation and anti-oxidants like Vitamin C need be supplemented at virtually ALL meals. Yes, I said ALL. They are water-soluble and you are constantly oxidizing things (and this includes oxidation by simple eating, hence the need for a nice antioxidant like Vitamin C; BUT keep in mind that 500 mg per sitting should be the upper limit dose as we do start seeing an optimization curve evolve with too much Vitamin C being a PRO-oxidant) and requiring B Vitamins for almost every reaction to move forward (and this includes protein synthesis...BUT also staving off things like elevations in homocysteine). Now, there is the theoretic risk that some B vitamins (when used in excess) can increase the risk of cancer (you were seeking increased growth afterall). Keep in mind, that things like Vitamin B6 (in any form) and other things involved in DNA replication - you do need to watch, BUT when talking Maximum Muscle Protein Synthesis - you need B Vitamins to drive those reactions home.

    So - you want to stave off muscle-wasting to the best of your ability? You want to minimize fat gain or maximize its loss? You want to look better naked at the end of the day...simple rules and they should be followed religiously - if you want the best info I can offer:

    1) Leucine, Leucine, Leucine to yield 25% of your total amino pool (maximum muscle protein synthesis)
    2) B Vitamins (coingested at virtually every meal to drive every reaction in the body; remember ... we are dealing with water-soluble elements, so you never know...just like it is the case with amino acids when they each will be called upon...things are constantly in a state of flux within the body).
    3) Vitamin C (coingested at virtually every meal - there is IMO about a 500mg upper limit in a single sitting AND the two times I would potentially avoid Vitamin C is 2 hours pre-workout and 2 hours post-workout...this is to allow for inflammatory cytokines to induce microscopic changes)
    4) Carbs (not necessarily bastardizing, but unneeded element for both aesthetics and athletics...NOW...this is not to suggest there wouldn't be benefit to a cyclical use of them for hormonal reasons well beyond the scope of this post; in fact, it is likely whole-heartedly superior).
    5) Coenzyme Q10 (please see thread about it in this subforum...it's support of muscle fiber type as well as attenuating muscle breakdown is possibly the most quintessential thing that you can ever learn here).



    D_
    Could you be more specific about your cyclical suggestion for carb intake?

    Im a little hazy as to what you are fully suggesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    IF just focusing on your last question; one can look at this in two ways:

    (1) Greatest net gains in muscle (without attention to whole body composition...ie. - welcoming simultaneous fat gain at the hopes of making a nominal difference)

    -or-

    (2) Greatest net gains in muscle (with attention to whole body composition...ie. - staving off simultaneous fat gain)



    I hope you see where I am going with this.

    IF aesthetics are the primary concern (and I presume they are); then this isn't as simple as saying "Me want muscle at all costs" (my best caveman or Frankenstein voice)! IF athletics are the primary concern (mind you, the two do NOT have to be mutually exclusive as better aesthetics oftentimes yields better athletics)...same idea!

    I do NOT (and this is worth repeating as I fear some have interpreted my writing in a way that was unintended) personally bastardize the carbohydrate. In fact, I think glycogen (storage carb) can be modulated according to goals (hence my support of macronutrient cycling being superior to any kind of bastardization - and there are a lot of hormonal rationale as well - i.e. - thyroid, etc...). BUT, at the same time...I fear carbohydrates have offered supplement manufacturers a "way out." Jesus - if you want carbs (to use to your advantage)...then EAT them. They are VERY cheap and act as a wonderful "filler."

    Are they "needed?" Absolutely NOT! There is not an ounce of evidence to suggest they are needed or essential. There is evidence to suggest, however, that when completely eliminating a macronutrient, you do put yourself at risk on the micronutrient level (namely low carb diets SUCK in terms of B Vitamins and subsequent cardiovascular health). And we can tie in so many other topics on this subforum here:

    B Vitamin supplementation and anti-oxidants like Vitamin C need be supplemented at virtually ALL meals. Yes, I said ALL. They are water-soluble and you are constantly oxidizing things (and this includes oxidation by simple eating, hence the need for a nice antioxidant like Vitamin C; BUT keep in mind that 500 mg per sitting should be the upper limit dose as we do start seeing an optimization curve evolve with too much Vitamin C being a PRO-oxidant) and requiring B Vitamins for almost every reaction to move forward (and this includes protein synthesis...BUT also staving off things like elevations in homocysteine). Now, there is the theoretic risk that some B vitamins (when used in excess) can increase the risk of cancer (you were seeking increased growth afterall). Keep in mind, that things like Vitamin B6 (in any form) and other things involved in DNA replication - you do need to watch, BUT when talking Maximum Muscle Protein Synthesis - you need B Vitamins to drive those reactions home.

    So - you want to stave off muscle-wasting to the best of your ability? You want to minimize fat gain or maximize its loss? You want to look better naked at the end of the day...simple rules and they should be followed religiously - if you want the best info I can offer:

    1) Leucine, Leucine, Leucine to yield 25% of your total amino pool (maximum muscle protein synthesis)
    2) B Vitamins (coingested at virtually every meal to drive every reaction in the body; remember ... we are dealing with water-soluble elements, so you never know...just like it is the case with amino acids when they each will be called upon...things are constantly in a state of flux within the body).
    3) Vitamin C (coingested at virtually every meal - there is IMO about a 500mg upper limit in a single sitting AND the two times I would potentially avoid Vitamin C is 2 hours pre-workout and 2 hours post-workout...this is to allow for inflammatory cytokines to induce microscopic changes)
    4) Carbs (not necessarily bastardizing, but unneeded element for both aesthetics and athletics...NOW...this is not to suggest there wouldn't be benefit to a cyclical use of them for hormonal reasons well beyond the scope of this post; in fact, it is likely whole-heartedly superior).
    5) Coenzyme Q10 (please see thread about it in this subforum...it's support of muscle fiber type as well as attenuating muscle breakdown is possibly the most quintessential thing that you can ever learn here).



    D_
    This is very interesting! So could you state this a few different ways in order for me to fully grasp this concept! I think I know what your saying but I don't want to "assume" anything. Thank you in advance...
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    Very intriguing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage

    Could you be more specific about your cyclical suggestion for carb intake?

    Im a little hazy as to what you are fully suggesting.
    Right just state it in laymans...
    I would never eliminate carbs but that's just me....
    Just eat healthy carbs and at appropriate times.
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