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    "Fat Burners"


    I have followed your posts for a while doc but am yet to see your top supps for fat loss (outside of your efa recommendations).

    I see your a fan of ua. But what else makes the good doctors cut?

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    Well, not necessarily a fan of "UA" - I think it looks interesting for a number of reasons...but I have little direct experience with the compound...it's just an on paper item at this point to even me.

    In any event - it depends on which direction you want to go....

    1) Stimulants/Pro-adrenergics
    2) Thyroid Support
    3) Cortisol Control (of which is a direct contrast to #1)
    4) Glycemic Control Agents
    5) Macronutrient Blockers

    All of which contribute to the end result of "fat loss" per se...

    Where would you like to begin?


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Well, not necessarily a fan of "UA" - I think it looks interesting for a number of reasons...but I have little direct experience with the compound...it's just an on paper item at this point to even me.

    In any event - it depends on which direction you want to go....

    1) Stimulants/Pro-adrenergics
    2) Thyroid Support
    3) Cortisol Control (of which is a direct contrast to #1)
    4) Glycemic Control Agents
    5) Macronutrient Blockers

    All of which contribute to the end result of "fat loss" per se...

    Where would you like to begin?


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    Glycemic Control Agents???

    Macronutrient Blockers???

    These like insulin mimetics? Like recompadrol?
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    Forget the mechanism.... Can we focus on the outcome?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMR01 View Post
    Forget the mechanism.... Can we focus on the outcome?
    That's the point though...with the exception of glycemic modifiers (of which, you would stand your best chance by mixing items within the class); your best synergism comes with mixing classes as opposed to settling on items from the same one. I have to look at them this way if outlining the best in class kind of deal with DSHEA-compliant items as follows:

    1) Stimulants/Pro-adrenergics: Yohimbine (or Rauwolscine HCl if you are very subject to sides); plenty of different pro-adrenergic amines on the market (not saying they're all DSHEA compliant however); Ephedra (if you can still find it; there are products with this item in it and if USED PROPERLY, then it still has to remain in a discussion of best-in-class)
    2) Thyroid Support: 7-keto DHEA; obviously T2 supplements as well
    3) Cortisol Control (of which is a direct contrast to #1): 7-keto DHEA/7-oxo DHEA (or bAET if topical); Phosphatidylserine (HIGH DOSE)
    4) Glycemic Control Agents: Na-R-ALA/K-R-ALA; Gymnema; Cinnamon
    5) Macronutrient Blockers (not the biggest fan of this category myself for bodybuilders; BUT white kidney bean extract (Phaseolus Vulgaris) and if you could ever get your hands on PROPERLY-MATURED Hoodia; they'd likely be the best in class
    6) Other thermogenics that don't fit neatly into a caterogy: Capsaicin; Raspberry Ketones; Ginger Root

    * If you haven't seen results with 7-keto; you aren't dosing it high enough for you!

    ** This list does NOT include Estrogen Blockers for those who are estrogen dominant! If you're not E-dominant; you will likely NOT see benefit in the fat-loss domain with this class.


    Hopefully this is more in lines with what you had in mind...



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    What is your take on TTA (tetradecylthioacetic acid) Is it worth taking? Would you combine it w/ green tea or raspberry ketones?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RawStrength View Post
    Glycemic Control Agents???

    Macronutrient Blockers???

    These like insulin mimetics? Like recompadrol?
    Sorry, I must have missed this post the first time through.

    Glycemic Control agents actually consist of a wide-group of agents, harboring different mechanisms.

    To say "insulin mimetic," you are referencing things that impact RELEASE of insulin (i.e. - Agmatine). This does NOT include all Glucose Disposable Agents nor does it include all Hypoglycemics.

    Macronutrient Blockers (i.e. - "Phase II") is intended to prevent absorption of a particular macronutrient (i.e. - protein, carbs, fat)...most notably though are carbs and fat...I presume there aren't too many people desiring less protein assimilation, but I have heard stranger things.



    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder1 View Post
    What is your take on TTA (tetradecylthioacetic acid) Is it worth taking? Would you combine it w/ green tea or raspberry ketones?
    TTA - NO! I really have hated this compound since it's introduction and finally they are starting to pull it from the market.

    People assumed it was "safe" due to this silly 7-day trial:
    http://journals.lww.com/cardiovascul...acetic.10.aspx

    BB dot com banned it's sale due to some longer-term (3 mos) rodent studies not being so positive. You could see, however, in all preliminary physiology studies that it accumulated in a very weird way in cardiac (heart tissue) and remained upon cessation of the element. At the same time; if you have used products from TTA (or its methylated version), you were part of a big supplement clinical trial and perhaps not even knowing it. The safety data is simply NOT complete to make me suggest everyone go out and become a lab rat.

    Everyone will sell you on fat loss, cholesterol, blood glucose effects (big deal; I can get these from numerous other agents, in particular...other, MUCH BETTER TESTED Fatty Acids)...I remain unimpressed and think an adultered fatty acid like this should be removed until more safety data is available.

    Ask a manufacturer about it and they'll likely tell you something different.

    I love raspberry ketones; best in bulk and dosed heavy. I unfortunately don't know of a lot of combo products that dose them effectively. I think SNS may have a pre-capped version at a relatively cheap price.

    Green Tea cannot be beat in terms of antioxidant properties and even fat loss particulars. However, in the same breath, I think more data need be had in the department of it's elevating SHBG; unfortunately we are very limited and to Japanese women. Some elevation may not offer alarm because it would positively impact estrogen; but I am unsure we have seen direct discernment of the T:E ratio.

    Association of coffee, green tea, and caffeine intakes with serum concentrations of estradiol and sex hormone-binding globulin in premenopausal Japanese women.
    Nagata C, Kabuto M, Shimizu H.

    Department of Public Health, Gifu University School of Medicine, Japan. chisato@cc.gifu-u.ac.jp
    Caffeine intake has been proposed to influence breast cancer risk. Its effect may be mediated by hormonal changes. The relationships between caffeine-containing beverages (coffee, green tea, black tea, oolong tea, and cola) and serum concentrations of estradiol and sex hormone-binding globulin were evaluated in 50 premenopausal Japanese women. Intakes of caffeine and caffeine-containing beverages were assessed by a semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaire. Blood samples were obtained from each woman on Days 11 and 22 of her menstrual cycle. High intakes of caffeinated coffee, green tea, and total caffeine were commonly correlated with increasing sex hormone-binding globulin on Days 11 and 22 of the cycle after controlling for potential confounders [Spearman correlation coefficients (r) ranged from 0.23 to 0.31]. Green tea but not caffeinated coffee intake was inversely correlated with estradiol on Day 11 of the cycle (r = -0.32, p = 0.04). Although the effect of caffeine cannot be distinguished from effects of coffee and green tea, consumption of caffeine-containing beverages appeared to favorably alter hormone levels associated with the risk of developing breast cancer.



    Now, there is another striking offering from research lowering Testosterone 70%. http://www.uchospitals.edu/news/2000/20000223-tea.html

    But a direct quote says...we simply should seek more data due to concerns about caloric restriction also responsible for lower levels of T; just NOT on the same order - which raises my eyebrow personally. Also, the prostate weights decrease far too significant to suggest NO effect on T levels.

    "In addition to decreased food intake and body weight, rats injected with EGCG had lower levels of testosterone (70 percent less in the bloodstream) and insulin. "These results may not have been a direct result of EGCG since food restriction could also cause these hormones to drop," said Liao.

    To test whether the EGCG was the direct cause of the hormonal changes, Liao compared the EGCG-injected rats to controls who were fed a restricted diet. These rats showed similar decreases in testosterone and insulin levels, but some hormones changes were seen in the EGCG-injected rats that were not observed in the restricted diet rats.
    "This means that some changes are directly due to EGCG," Liao said.

    Because of the lower testosterone levels, the researchers also noticed that EGCG injections caused the prostate of healthy rats to decrease in weight. In some rats, the prostate lost 70 percent of its original weight. Lowering the testosterone level may be helpful in preventing the enlargement of prostate and the growth prostate cancer in older people, Liao said.

    EGCG was less effective when rats were given the substance orally. "This may be because of poor absorption of EGCG or possibly because of an interaction with food," said Liao. The researchers also found that EGCG reduced abdominal and subcutaneous (just under the skin) fat, and blood levels of lipid, glucose and cholesterol, but did not appear to cause liver damage.

    Although oral administration of EGCG was ineffective even after 14 consecutive days of large doses, Liao thinks that long-term oral consumption may mimic some of the results obtained with injection."


    It's probably a good thing that oral doses of green tea were junk - but just keep in mind that if it's junk...what exactly are you paying for???



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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    That's the point though...with the exception of glycemic modifiers (of which, you would stand your best chance by mixing items within the class); your best synergism comes with mixing classes as opposed to settling on items from the same one. I have to look at them this way if outlining the best in class kind of deal with DSHEA-compliant items as follows:

    1) Stimulants/Pro-adrenergics: Yohimbine (or Rauwolscine HCl if you are very subject to sides); plenty of different pro-adrenergic amines on the market (not saying they're all DSHEA compliant however); Ephedra (if you can still find it; there are products with this item in it and if USED PROPERLY, then it still has to remain in a discussion of best-in-class)
    2) Thyroid Support: 7-keto DHEA; obviously T2 supplements as well
    3) Cortisol Control (of which is a direct contrast to #1): 7-keto DHEA/7-oxo DHEA (or bAET if topical); Phosphatidylserine (HIGH DOSE)
    4) Glycemic Control Agents: Na-R-ALA/K-R-ALA; Gymnema; Cinnamon
    5) Macronutrient Blockers (not the biggest fan of this category myself for bodybuilders; BUT white kidney bean extract (Phaseolus Vulgaris) and if you could ever get your hands on PROPERLY-MATURED Hoodia; they'd likely be the best in class
    6) Other thermogenics that don't fit neatly into a caterogy: Capsaicin; Raspberry Ketones; Ginger Root

    * If you haven't seen results with 7-keto; you aren't dosing it high enough for you!

    ** This list does NOT include Estrogen Blockers for those who are estrogen dominant! If you're not E-dominant; you will likely NOT see benefit in the fat-loss domain with this class.


    Hopefully this is more in lines with what you had in mind...



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    What do you believe is a good dose fro 7-keto dhea? Mixing w/ Raspberry ketones, would that be a good combo?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder1 View Post
    What do you believe is a good dose fro 7-keto dhea? Mixing w/ Raspberry ketones, would that be a good combo?
    The dose of 7-keto DHEA used in the most efficacious studies was 200mg. That said, we have managed to use 200mg three times a day in some individuals with success and minimal (if any) suppression - (see DHEA thread for more).

    Not terribly priced in Now Foods brand:
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/n...ps-100-mg.html
    (your local Vitamin Shoppe may be able to beat this price with store brand)

    Or you could go to Transdermal (provided you can remain compliant with dosing; sometime cumbersome):
    http://www.prototypenutrition.com/Pr...?ProductCode=7

    or even combo with 11-oxo if you can:
    http://www.prototypenutrition.com/Pr...ctCode=711STAX

    Raspberry ketones are sometimes difficult to assess an effective dose for some based on volume of distribution when drawn against gastrointestinal distress. The typical effective dosage range can therefore be extremely far-reaching and hover anywhere from 200 (really thin) - 1000 (not-so-thin) mg daily in 2-3 divided doses. Taking large amounts at once (> 500 mg) is known to cause stomach irritation in some users. How to best assess this: Start Low and go slow increasing the dose as you go.

    Start here in your evaluation...
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/s...-capsules.html

    Take 1 cap 2-3 times per day and use it for a few days; then move to 2 caps 2-3 times per day.

    In order to cut down on the number of caps in subsequent orders...higher-order RK products are available (NP brand most cost efficient by 10 caps):
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/n...-capsules.html
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/s...e-90-caps.html


    Wow - this thread sounds like I am whoring out; but in reality...these seem to be the MOST COST EFFICIENT options...if you know of others...feel free to post guys...



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    You have probably posted thoughts on this before. But forskolin for fat loss?
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    I like conversations on "GDA" products because the term gets thrown around on products with different MOAs (as you have mentioned already).

    Something like gymnema, if it is blocking intestinal absorption I don't understand why people would use it on a bulking diet unless they are using it on a cheat meal to mitigate damage.

    Could you please expand on some of your favourites? I think there is so much misunderstanding on when they should be used and most importantly why they are being used, especially in low carb dieters using it on planned refeeds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    You have probably posted thoughts on this before. But forskolin for fat loss?
    Sure - we'll look at this one...I have talked about so many fat-loss aids over the years that I am uncertain which I have talked but, however, I'd be hard-pressed to believe I haven't fielded questions on this before.

    In any event, the mechanism is "interesting" and has lead to many hypotheses around what it does - then one overt clinical study was exciting suggesting hypothesized mechanisms actually translated to the clinical world. I still find it stacks rather well with hyperadrenergics (i.e. - Forskolin + Ephedra) and thyroidal agents (i.e. - Forskolin + T2) in different mechanisms; thereby potentiating them.

    Forskolin apparently "works" by activating the enzyme adenylate cyclase. Lipolytic hormones such as epinephrine (adrenaline if you're European) activate adenylate cyclase as well, but forskolin does not have the same CNS effects, so it essentially bypasses the step that is associated with the unwanted side effects (nervousness, restlessness) we find with other fat loss agents that function by increasing lipolytic hormone levels (BUT that's only if you cannot tolerate them; otherwise, I'd say stack them). When adenylate cyclase is activated it then converts to cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP). This increase in cAMP levels has many effects on the body, but the one that is of most interest for fat loss is the activation of cAMP-dependent protein kinase, which in turn activates hormone-sensitive lipase (HSL), which ultimately breaks down fat and releases it as free fatty acids in the bloodstream. This process is commonly referred to as the "cAMP cascade" or "lipolytic cascade." As I said before, forskolin also acts as a thyroid stimulant, most likely through a cAMP-mediated process.

    So - let's take a look at the clinical study that got everyone excited...

    Godard M, Johnson B, Richmond S. Body composition and hormonal adaptations associated with forskolin consumption in overweight and obese men. Obes Res. 2005 Aug, 13(8):1335-43.

    Full Study: http://www.adipril.com/research/forslean.pdf

    Men given 250 mg of forskolin extract containing 10% forskolin (25 mg of forskolin) twice a day lost 9.9 pounds of body fat and increased lean body mass by 8.1 pounds in three months compared to the placebo group which lost 1.1 pounds of body fat and gained 3.5 pounds of lean body mass according to a study from Michael Godard and others from the Department of Health, Sport and Exercise Sciences’ Applied Physiology Laboratory at the University of Kansas in Lawrence, Kansas, USA.

    “In summary, this study shows that forskolin causes positive changes in body composition in overweight and obese adult men,” the paper concluded.

    Subjects: 30 overweight and obese men


    The study involved 30 overweight and obese men who, on average, were 24-years-old in the forskolin group and 28-years-old in the placebo group, had a body mass index (BMI) of 32.5 (obese), and 35 percent body fat.

    Percent body fat decreased from 35% to 31% in the forskolin group

    Percent body fat decreased from 35 percent at the beginning of the study to 31 percent after three months in the forskolin group.
    There was no change in percent body fat in the placebo group.

    Lean body mass increased by 8.2 lbs in the forskolin group

    Lean body mass (muscle) increased by 8.2 pounds in the forskolin group versus an increase of 3.5 pounds in the placebo group.
    The difference between the groups was no statistically significant which means there was more than a 5 percent chance that the difference was due to random chance.

    Body weight decreased by 0.2 lbs in the forskolin group vs a weight gain of 2.6 lbs in the placebo group

    Body weight for the forskolin group decreased from 228.8 pounds to 228.6 pounds, a weight loss of 0.2 pounds versus the placebo group where weight increased from 221.1 pounds to 224.7 pounds, a weight gain of 2.6 pounds.
    There was an increase in bone mass in the forskolin group which made up the difference in weight.

    Total Testosterone: +17% in the forskolin group vs -1% in the placebo group

    Total testosterone levels increased by 16.8 percent in the forskolin group versus a decrease of 1.1 percent in the placebo group.


    Free Testosterone: +3.5% in the forskolin group vs -4.1% in the placebo group


    Free testosterone levels increased by 3.5 percent in the forskolin group versus a decrease of 4.1 percent in the placebo group. This result was important to verify the fact that Total T was a result of Free T elevation rather than SHBG or binding proteins. The thing is - this could be GREAT on caloric restriction as reducing calories can NEGATIVELY impact testosterone levels (also when compared to anabolics in the past, this has been really amazing).

    Forskolin did not have a significant effect resting metabolism

    “Follow-up tests revealed no significant changes in [resting metabolism] within either group,” the study noted.

    No significant changes in blood pressure

    There were no significant changes in blood pressure in either group.
    Systolic pressure decreased from 133 mmHg to 127 mmHg in the forskolin group, which was not statistically significant.
    Systolic pressure also decreased in the placebo group from 130 mmHg to 125 mmHg, which also was not statistically significant.
    Previous studies (Lindner et al, 1978) found that forskolin could increase contractions of the heart which, in turn, reduced blood pressure.

    Conclusion: Forskolin may have caused fat loss, increased muscle and increase body mass by increasing cAMP

    “One of the potential explanations for the decrease in fat mass and body fat percentage may have occurred through adenylate cyclase activation and, thus, cAMP accumulation within adipose tissue, which stimulated free fatty acid release and lipolysis [the release of fat from fat cells,” the study noted.

    “[Resting metabolism] did not significantly change across time during this study, implying that, in a 12-week study, forskolin did not increase metabolic rate.”

    “These findings are extremely important because of forskolin’s mechanism of action. The majority of previous weight loss aids worked through adrenergic receptor activation. Adrenergic receptor activation can down-regulate over time and result in diminished lipolytic effects. Forskolin bypasses the adrenergic activation step and increases cAMP levels by either stimulating adenylate cyclase or by increasing the cAMP accumulating properties of catecholamines. Therefore, forskolin could possibly be used for long periods of time without diminished lipolytic effects in conjunction with increasing LBM. Further research into the long-term effects of forskolin is needed to accurately asses this theory.”


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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I like conversations on "GDA" products because the term gets thrown around on products with different MOAs (as you have mentioned already).

    Something like gymnema, if it is blocking intestinal absorption I don't understand why people would use it on a bulking diet unless they are using it on a cheat meal to mitigate damage.

    Could you please expand on some of your favourites? I think there is so much misunderstanding on when they should be used and most importantly why they are being used, especially in low carb dieters using it on planned refeeds.
    I think you may find this thread:

    Glucose Disposal Agents - Q&A with Dr. Dana Houser

    an interesting read. You may want to read this first and if you find you still have questions re: this topic then it may be a good idea to field them then. I did talk about gymnema in particular within this thread.


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    Dana- I read in LEF magazine that taking vitamin C with Green Tea increases its absorption significantly! So oral users of green tea may want to consider that! Then again given you are on the fence about it, maybe its best to just avoid it (for fat loss).

    What about lower amounts for general health? I assume its still good right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolbreeze View Post
    Dana- I read in LEF magazine that taking vitamin C with Green Tea increases its absorption significantly! So oral users of green tea may want to consider that! Then again given you are on the fence about it, maybe its best to just avoid it (for fat loss).

    What about lower amounts for general health? I assume its still good right?
    This presents an interesting dilemma I suppose. I mean - perhaps poor absorption has been the saving grace all along (if anyone claims they know; I'd challenge them to the "T" - no pund).

    We have NOT yet (research-wise) done enough in the hormonal realm to make me think that this won't harbor significant impact somewhere (probably increasing SHBG, increasing estrogen, and decreasing testosterone), barring good absorption and assimilation.

    In the same breath, I myself - DO, in fact, sit down to a little green tea each week due to the positives; but the actual tea itself, not some extract.

    I am going to present some studies (usually they fall along the lines of breast cancer because no one cares about males and muscle-building ... hopefully that's evident as we are becoming an increasingly LESS MALE society). The point is, these studies are - at minimum - eye-opening.


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    Mol Nutr Food Res. 2011 Jun;55(6):921-30. doi: 10.1002/mnfr.201100006. Epub 2011 Apr 29.
    Green tea and breast cancer.

    Wu AH, Butler LM.
    Source

    Department of Preventive Medicine, University of Southern California Keck School of Medicine, Los Angeles, CA, USA. annawu@usc.edu

    Abstract

    The identification of modifiable lifestyle factors that could reduce the risk of breast cancer is a research priority. Despite the enormous chemopreventive potential of green tea and compelling evidence from animal studies, its role in breast cancer development in humans is still unclear. Part of the uncertainty is related to the relatively small number of epidemiological studies on green tea and breast cancer and that the overall results from case-control studies and prospective cohort studies are discordant. In addition, the mechanisms by which green tea intake may influence risk of breast cancer in humans remain not well studied. We review the human studies that have evaluated the relationship between green tea intake and four biomarkers (sex steroid hormones, mammographic density, insulin-like growth factor, adiponectin) that are believed to be important in breast cancer development. Results from these biomarker studies are also inconclusive. Limitations of observational studies and areas of further investigations are discussed.
    Copyright © 2011 WILEY-VCH Verlag GmbH & Co. KGaA, Weinheim.

    PMID:21538855[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Mol Cancer. 2010 Oct 14;9:274.
    Synergistic epigenetic reactivation of estrogen receptor-α (ERα) by combined green tea polyphenol and histone deacetylase inhibitor in ERα-negative breast cancer cells.

    Li Y, Yuan YY, Meeran SM, Tollefsbol TO.
    Source

    Department of Biology, University of Alabama at Birmingham, 1300 University Boulevard Birmingham, AL 35294, USA.

    Abstract

    BACKGROUND:

    The status of estrogen receptor-α (ERα) is critical to the clinical prognosis and therapeutic approach in breast cancer. ERα-negative breast cancer is clinically aggressive and has a poor prognosis because of the lack of hormone target-directed therapies. Previous studies have shown that epigenetic regulation plays a major role in ERα silencing in human breast cancer cells. Dietary green tea polyphenol, (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG), is believed to be an anticancer agent in part through its regulation of epigenetic processes.
    RESULTS:

    In our current studies, we found that EGCG can reactivate ERα expression in ERα-negative MDA-MB-231 breast cancer cells. Combination studies using EGCG with the histone deacetylase (HDAC) inhibitor, trichostatin A (TSA), revealed a synergistic effect of reactivation of ERα expression in ERα-negative breast cancer cells. Reactivation of ERα expression by EGCG and TSA treatment was found to sensitize ERα-dependent cellular responses to activator 17β-estradiol (E2) and antagonist tamoxifen in ERα-negative breast cancer cells. We also found that EGCG can lead to remodeling of the chromatin structure of the ERα promoter by altering histone acetylation and methylation status thereby resulting in ERα reactivation. A decreased binding of the transcription repressor complex, Rb/p130-E2F4/5-HDAC1-SUV39H1-DNMT1, in the regulatory region of the ERα promoter also contributes to ERα transcriptional activation through treatment with EGCG and/or TSA.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    Collectively, these studies show that green tea EGCG can restore ERα expression by regulating epigenetic mechanisms, and this effect is enhanced when combined with an HDAC inhibitor. This study will facilitate more effective uses of combination approaches in breast cancer therapy and will help to explore more effective chemotherapeutic strategies toward hormone-resistant breast cancer.

    PMID:20946668[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    I think you may find this thread:

    Glucose Disposal Agents - Q&A with Dr. Dana Houser

    an interesting read. You may want to read this first and if you find you still have questions re: this topic then it may be a good idea to field them then. I did talk about gymnema in particular within this thread.


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    I would like to know your views on times of the day to use these. As you have stated in this thread people should not use them for refeeds as they are looking for the full effects of insulin.

    How about post workout?

    If looking at building muscle and are lean then high amounts of carbs can be consumed post workout. If I include something like Na-R-Ala I can consume a higher amount of carbs but would this lesser the effect of insulin rather than potentiating it through a high carb intake?
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    Ann Epidemiol. 2010 Jan;20(1):74-81.
    Is green tea drinking associated with a later onset of breast cancer?

    Dai Q, Shu XO, Li H, Yang G, Shrubsole MJ, Cai H, Ji B, Wen W, Franke A, Gao YT, Zheng W.
    Source

    Department of Medicine, Vanderbilt Epidemiology Center, Vanderbilt-Ingram Cancer Center, Vanderbilt School of Medicine, Nashville, TN 37203-1738, USA. qi.dai@vanderbilt.edu

    Abstract

    BACKGROUND:

    Studies have found that tea polyphenols inhibit aromatase. Because of the substantial difference in levels of estrogens between premenopausal and postmenopausal women, the relationship between tea consumption and breast cancer risk may depend on menopausal status.
    METHODS:

    We examined this hypothesis in the Shanghai Women's Health Study, a population-based cohort study of 74,942 Chinese women.
    RESULTS:

    We found a time-dependent interaction between green tea consumption and age of breast cancer onset (p for interaction, 0.03). In comparison with non-tea drinkers, women who started tea-drinking at 25 years of age or younger had a hazard ratio (HR) of 0.69 (95% confidence interval [CI]: 0.41-1.17) to develop premenopausal breast cancer. On the other hand, compared with non-tea drinkers, women who started tea drinking at 25 years of age or younger had an increased risk of postmenopausal breast cancer with an HR of 1.61 (95% CI: 1.18-2.20). Additional analyses suggest regularly drinking green tea may delay the onset of breast cancer.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    Further studies are needed to confirm our findings.

    PMID:20006278[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    J Nutr. 2008 Nov;138(11):2156-63.
    Chronic green tea consumption decreases body mass, induces aromatase expression, and changes proliferation and apoptosis in adult male rat adipose tissue.

    Monteiro R, Assunção M, Andrade JP, Neves D, Calhau C, Azevedo I.
    Source

    Department of Biochemistry, Faculty of Medicine, University of Porto, 4200-319 Porto, Portugal. rosariom@med.up.pt

    Abstract

    Green tea (GT) and its components have been shown to possess antiobesity properties and the corresponding mechanisms of action are being investigated, given the epidemic proportions of obesity incidence. In the current work, we used 12-mo-old male Wistar rats to test the effect of 6 mo of treatment with GT as the sole drinking beverage (52.8 +/- 6.4 mL/d) on adipose tissue (AT). AT aromatase expression was determined by Western blotting, plasma concentrations of 17beta-estradiol and testosterone were determined by RIA, and adipocyte size determined by measuring diameter in tissue sections. Proliferation and apoptosis were also assessed by Ki67 immunostaining and terminal deoxynucleotidyl transferase-mediated deoxyuridine triphosphate nick end-labeling, respectively. Evaluations were made in subcutaneous (sc) AT and visceral (v) AT. Body weight increased over time in both groups (P < 0.001), but the increase was more pronounced in controls (P < 0.001) and food and fluid intake did not influence that effect. At the end of the experiment, aromatase expression increased in the AT (318.5 +/- 60.6% of control in scAT, P < 0.05, and 285.5 +/- 82.9% of control in vAT, P < 0.01). AT of GT-treated rats had a higher percentage of proliferating cells (204.1 +/- 19.5% of control in scAT, P < 0.01, and 246.6 +/- 50.2% of control in vAT, P < 0.01) and smaller adipocytes (78.3 +/- 1.7% of control in scAT, P < 0.001, and 87.9 +/- 3.2% of control in vAT, P < 0.05). GT also increased the number of apoptotic cells in vAT (320.4 +/- 21.9% of control; P < 0.001). These results suggest new mechanisms for GT on body weight and highlight its potential benefit to prevent or treat obesity and the metabolic syndrome.

    PMID:18936213[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I would like to know your views on times of the day to use these. As you have stated in this thread people should not use them for refeeds as they are looking for the full effects of insulin.

    How about post workout?

    If looking at building muscle and are lean then high amounts of carbs can be consumed post workout. If I include something like Na-R-Ala I can consume a higher amount of carbs but would this lesser the effect of insulin rather than potentiating it through a high carb intake?
    I think it's use is fine post-workout; BUT the problem is not there...Na-R-ALA does NOT increase insulin secretion!!! It increases sensitivity in this manner (indirectly); BUT the effects are MUCH more pronounced in those who are insulin resistant at baseline (which if you are lean then - you may not see the full effects in this manner).


    Diabetologia. 2006 Jul;49(7):1587-98. Epub 2006 May 13.
    alpha-lipoic acid regulates AMP-activated protein kinase and inhibits insulin secretion from beta cells.

    Targonsky ED, Dai F, Koshkin V, Karaman GT, Gyulkhandanyan AV, Zhang Y, Chan CB, Wheeler MB.
    Source

    Department of Physiology, University of Toronto, 1 King's College Circle, Toronto, ON, Canada, M5S 1A8.

    Abstract

    AIMS/HYPOTHESIS:

    The antioxidant compound alpha-lipoic acid (alpha-LA) possesses antidiabetic and anti-obesity properties. In the hypothalamus, alpha-LA suppresses appetite and prevents obesity by inhibiting AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK). Given the therapeutic potential of alpha-LA for the treatment of type 2 diabetes and obesity, and the importance of AMPK in beta cells, we examined the effect of alpha-LA on pancreatic beta cell function.
    MATERIALS AND METHODS:

    Isolated rat islets and MIN6 beta cells were treated acutely (15-90 min) or chronically (18-24 h) with alpha-LA or the known AMPK-activating compounds 5'-amino-imidazole-4-carboxamide ribonucleoside (AICAR) and metformin. Insulin secretion, the AMPK-signalling pathway, mitochondrial function and cell growth were assessed.
    RESULTS:

    Acute or chronic treatment of islets and MIN6 cells with alpha-LA led to dose-dependent rises in phosphorylation of the AMPK alpha-subunit and acetyl CoA carboxylase. Chronic exposure to alpha-LA, AICAR or metformin caused a reduction in insulin secretion. alpha-LA inhibited the p70 s6 kinase translational control pathway, and inhibited MIN6 growth in a manner similar to rapamycin. Unlike AICAR and metformin, alpha-LA also acutely inhibited insulin secretion. Examination of the effect of alpha-LA on mitochondrial function showed that acute treatment with this compound elevated reactive oxygen species (ROS) production and enhanced mitochondrial depolarisation induced by Ca(2+).
    CONCLUSIONS/INTERPRETATION:

    This study is the first to demonstrate that alpha-LA directly affects beta cell function. The chronic effects of alpha-LA include AMPK activation and reductions in insulin secretion and content, and cell growth. Acutely, alpha-LA also inhibits insulin secretion, an effect probably involving the ROS-induced impairment of mitochondrial function.

    PMID:16752177[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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    So if i'm reading this right. You would stay away from using green tea extract as a fatloss agent & use smaller doses from antioxidants purposes correct?
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    Make no mistake...I would still ingest it from a ROS-attenuator standpoint when trying to further employ oxidizing fat-loss efforts; BUT are you going to notice anything TRULY demonstrable...probably not, and certainly not in a cost-efficient dose for someone like you.

    That said - IF you are employing carb-cycling; it should be avoided by ALL during the carb-up period. BUT, if you are trying to utilize insulinomimetic properties of a TKD (which sounds more what you are getting at); then you might - IN THAT SCENARIO - avoid this post-workout...BUT, instead take it PRE-workout. You would best potentiate the effects of insulin in this manner because you could truly exploit counter-regulatory hormones (this comes with AVOIDANCE of carbs AND fast-acting proteins pre-workout...about 2-2.5 hours).

    I say this with the caveat ... you might wind up with some issues of running hypOglycemic given the attenuation in blood sugar seen with working out alone; so be careful - if you want to offer up your diet (as you would do it on a workout day; inclusive of pre-workout meals); perhaps we could use that as an example of what I am talking about?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder1 View Post
    So if i'm reading this right. You would stay away from using green tea extract as a fatloss agent & use smaller doses from antioxidants purposes correct?
    For men ... quite possibly YES.

    BUT, like has been discussed...without something like concomitant Vitamin C; absorption of oral Green tea is terrible anyway; so most supplements probably don't matter (saving grace that it has terrible bioavailability on it's own....unsure? In other words, if it's bioavailability were better, would we have seen more hormonal effects...I don't think we have the foggiest clue!).

    IF you know of any hormone balances you may already possess OR IF you are post cycle OR IF you are concerned that you may be estrogen dominant (i.e. - have experienced symptoms of gyno/hair loss/etc...); you may best steer clear in any amounts.

    Some people may say - "But, I have used green tea a lot and have never had any problems! I think you're full of it!" This is FINE, however - keep in mind bioavailability issues which may have "protected" you, as well as whether or not you TRULY noticed anything wonderful about supplementing with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Make no mistake...I would still ingest it from a ROS-attenuator standpoint when trying to further employ oxidizing fat-loss efforts; BUT are you going to notice anything TRULY demonstrable...probably not, and certainly not in a cost-efficient dose for someone like you.

    That said - IF you are employing carb-cycling; it should be avoided by ALL during the carb-up period. BUT, if you are trying to utilize insulinomimetic properties of a TKD (which sounds more what you are getting at); then you might - IN THAT SCENARIO - avoid this post-workout...BUT, instead take it PRE-workout. You would best potentiate the effects of insulin in this manner because you could truly exploit counter-regulatory hormones (this comes with AVOIDANCE of carbs AND fast-acting proteins pre-workout...about 2-2.5 hours).

    I say this with the caveat ... you might wind up with some issues of running hypOglycemic given the attenuation in blood sugar seen with working out alone; so be careful - if you want to offer up your diet (as you would do it on a workout day; inclusive of pre-workout meals); perhaps we could use that as an example of what I am talking about?


    D_
    This was in response to the ALA - obviously.

    There are two discussions going on here - one on GDAs and insulin potentiation and the other on the potential hormonal effects of green tea which may be hard to follow, BUT I love the interaction...so keep up the great questions. I just want to be sure everyone is on board with what is being discussed and not to confuse them.


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    ^^^ i'm on board & understand.
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    It is in these intricacies which make the discussion so fascinating.

    If I am the example then I am low carb except after workouts and one meal in the evening.

    Body fat is what is in my avatar, natural athlete.

    So, what difference would this make to recommendations?
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    Bump this up..
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    It is in these intricacies which make the discussion so fascinating.

    If I am the example then I am low carb except after workouts and one meal in the evening.

    Body fat is what is in my avatar, natural athlete.

    So, what difference would this make to recommendations?
    Well...so I know you're lean and naturally that way and it sounds like you do a TKD style setup. Is the diet the same everyday? What would a typical day look like (usually I have clients include one weekday and one weekend day if they differ at all)?

    Is your primary goal "fat" loss still or are you looking to attain anything else?


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    A typical day would look something like this;

    - 6 rashers of free range bacon and 4 free range eggs, one onion.
    - 25g~ BCAAs intra workout
    - 40g~ EAAs with 100g maltodextrin post workout
    - Two salmon fillets and 50g hazelnuts
    - 250g beef mince with onions, tomatoes, herbs etc
    - Chicken and vegetables for dinner. Sometimes potatoes as my only whole food source of starch for the day.

    Goals wise I am not in any particular phase and spend most of my time recomping to a leaner version of myself at the same weight.

    EAAs are mostly because I don't digest whey very well and I am waiting for brown rice protein to come back into stock.
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    Re: green tea..seeing as how nature is the most synergistic of supplement makers, is it possible other things in green tea and I mean the whole leaf as you would steep to make tea, mitigate any negative hormonal effects of egcg? I am unsure of the actual egcg content in a tea bags worth of green tea or if there is variation between the different grades. Also, what about white tea? Pretty sure it also has egcg.
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    Bump.
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    Dana-

    Would you not call items like Rasberry Ketones, Fuco, Usnic Acid etc - Uncoupling Agents? Heck I think even Omega 3 fats can increase uncoupling protein expression right? These seem to be one of the best ways to lose weight (Not Usnic Acid of course).
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    Also - isnt Hoodia really an appetite suppressant? I would think this could be another category as the same company that has Testofen also has a patented Slimulina that I think works the same way - killing appetite.

    Heck even 5HTP can diminish appetite a little, right? (via serotonin elevation)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    A typical day would look something like this;

    - 6 rashers of free range bacon and 4 free range eggs, one onion.
    - 25g~ BCAAs intra workout
    - 40g~ EAAs with 100g maltodextrin post workout
    - Two salmon fillets and 50g hazelnuts
    - 250g beef mince with onions, tomatoes, herbs etc
    - Chicken and vegetables for dinner. Sometimes potatoes as my only whole food source of starch for the day.

    Goals wise I am not in any particular phase and spend most of my time recomping to a leaner version of myself at the same weight.

    EAAs are mostly because I don't digest whey very well and I am waiting for brown rice protein to come back into stock.
    I would use it at the spots I have designated in red for heightened fat loss (about 30 minutes prior to these, except the post-workout one as your blood sugar will already be declining); BUT...you seem like you could get away with allocating supplement dollars elsewhere for a while; if you want antioxidant prowess + testosterone stimulation, you may try a combo of Vitamin C and NAC instead.


    Quote Originally Posted by broons View Post
    Re: green tea..seeing as how nature is the most synergistic of supplement makers, is it possible other things in green tea and I mean the whole leaf as you would steep to make tea, mitigate any negative hormonal effects of egcg? I am unsure of the actual egcg content in a tea bags worth of green tea or if there is variation between the different grades. Also, what about white tea? Pretty sure it also has egcg.
    I unfortunately do NOT have an answer for your first question. I simply don't know. But, boiling water will decrease some of the EGCG.

    EGCG is the most abundant catechin in teas of all types, EXCEPT black tea because it is usually lost in production. Now, you must understand that green tea and white tea are the same plant (as are every other type of tea, including black - but the fermentation of black renders it's EGCG content essentially nil, whereas oolong can kind of be thought of as a partial black with EGCG in between white/green and black); white tea is just young and harvested early, whereas green tea is more mature and harvested later.

    Most of the research showing the health benefits of green tea is based on the amount of green tea typically consumed in Asian countries—about 3 cups per day (which would provide 240-320 mg of polyphenols). Just one cup of green tea supplies 20-35 mg of EGCG, but you're correct to say that the amount varies dependent upon brand, et al...but usually we get about 20-35 mg in the lab per cup; so take that for what it's worth. White tea is usually accepted as having a higher amount of EGCG when compared to green tea - so it is very likely that it works even moreso against SHBG if that holds true; but white tea hasn't been studied in this capacity...green tea has (alas, we may always have limitations).


    Quote Originally Posted by coolbreeze View Post
    Dana-

    Would you not call items like Rasberry Ketones, Fuco, Usnic Acid etc - Uncoupling Agents? Heck I think even Omega 3 fats can increase uncoupling protein expression right? These seem to be one of the best ways to lose weight (Not Usnic Acid of course).
    In short...YES, albeit to different levels.



    Quote Originally Posted by coolbreeze View Post
    Also - isnt Hoodia really an appetite suppressant? I would think this could be another category as the same company that has Testofen also has a patented Slimulina that I think works the same way - killing appetite.

    Heck even 5HTP can diminish appetite a little, right? (via serotonin elevation)

    Yes, on all questions. Ya know; Hoodia got a bad rap unfortunately and it was simply when supply couldn't match demand and plants were being harvested far too early for it to have true efficacy. It's exceedingly hard to source. I wrote an article series called "The Rise and Fall of Hoodia gordonii" some time ago when I released a fat loss/life extension product known as "Ultra Prime" back in 2007/2008. Hoodia has such an interesting background; I wish we had more time to discuss it here; but let me see if I can dig that article set up and post it.

    As for SlimALUMA; it is an extract of Caralluma fimbriata which does, in fact, act in a way very similar to hoodia and is categorized as more of an appetite suppressant...BUT Irvinga gabonensis probably works a lot better of the three - IF you dose it high enough!!!

    Serotonin cascades are actually quite fun to work with in appetite suppression; but so are other cascades like pro-adrenergic, etc...


    Great topics guys; how is everyone not salivating over this discussion who actively participates in this board would be beyond me.



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    In the above scenario you are talking about ALA. Is there another "blood sugar supplement" (to use an intentionally broad umbrella term) you would use in these instances instead or so you believe ALA would be the superior option?

    Out if interest, why would you use it with a post workout shake but not with the meal immediately following?

    Thanks a lot for your response. I agree that the topic is fascinating.

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    Lets put together a fat loss stack! Id def trial it, along side some of the supps from the top 10... should be interesting!
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    sub for later read
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    Great stuff Dana! We need to get you on Quantum Physiques radio show again this month!

    I saw an article touting astaxanthin for weight loss - what are your thoughts?
    Last edited by coolbreeze; 01-01-2012 at 05:31 PM. Reason: spelling
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    Also Dana - what do you think of the notion that having 'cheat' days of overfeeding can keep the metabolism up and help fat loss? Seems dieting leads to lowered fat burning after as little as a week right?
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