"Fat Burners"

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Can the supplement alpha t2 raise cortisol?

    Can you suggest any good natty anti cortisol/cortisol reducing supps?
    If I recall correctly, this is a T2 supplement, no? If so, just understand that thyroid supplements can very much so decrease overt muscle mass and as a result hault progress by default if implemented inappropriately.

    I wouldn't suggest there is a direct cortisol-promoting effect however. But that doesn't commit the product to being deemed good or even appropriate in all situations.

    As suggested later: PS is good (but cost-prohibitive in some instances due to the dose needed to truly make physique change of significance...which, in my experience is sometimes double what even the study dose of 600-800mg would call for). Hands-down winner of cortisol control aides, however, is the 7-keto/7-oxo/bAET cascade (again keeping in mind that oral bioavailability decreases going right to left; but level of cort control actually increases/thyroid effect decreases).


    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    GABA won't have the effect you think it does; try a hefty morning and evening dose of Phosphatidylserine. LX is natty btw
    Yes, but cost-prohibitive in many cases as stated above.




    Now, consider the following exchange...

    Quote Originally Posted by pnut143 View Post
    Vitamin C* cheapest and quite effective, I can't pull the studies up right now but especially for cortisol induced by exercise, vitamin C does an amazing jog at controlling it.

    1g Pre and post woekout
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    Too bad antioxidants are a double edged sword:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22060178
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...8/?tool=pubmed

    Besides, many people are trying to chase a hormonal ghost. These relatively small and transient hormonal changes have probably a minuscule or no effect on relevant endpoints. It's beyong me why people micromanage everything so much. I've done it too and while I know my anecdotal experience is practically worthless I've gone from spending >150$ monthly on supplements to only use whey and creatine and I experience no changes whatsoever.

    My response is that CONTROLLED CATABOLISM is actually a good thing if body composition is what you seek. That said, there is not a more perfect time than peri-workout to allow your body to attain some level of overt catabolism. Ingestion of aides around the workout for anti-oxidant effects could have the dubious effect of attenuating cytokines (chemical messengers; in this case - signaling repair singals). I usually suggest people do one of two things:

    1) Avoid products of anti-cort/anti-ox nature 2-4 hours before and 2-4 hours after a workout.
    2) Vitamin C should however be ingested at a level of NO MORE THAN 500 mg at a single sitting to reflect its dose-response curve in terms of becoming an actual PRO-oxidant. However, oxidation happens at each and every meal throughout the day.

    As for the micro-manage commentary; perhaps this is true. However, cummulative micro-manage can translate into macro-gains. The problem is most people still have absolutely NO IDEA how to employ things in a manner that would actually help them. Besides, what to do when you have done everything in your power to attain the physique of your dreams and get "really close" but still fall short of your goals? Drastic times call for...


    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Vitamin C won't help with cortisol in healthy individuals who aren't doing heavy endurance training/
    Don't agree with this statement at all as it is actually immunoresponsive (read: cortisol-inhibiting) and again we are talking CUMMULATIVE effects - everyone suffers from oxidation (hell, breathing causes oxidation). My encouragement would be to look into orthomolecular dosing protocols and how and why they evolved and come back to this topic.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author


  2. So could say 500mg of vit c 4times a day with meals inhibit cortisol?

    Obv there is a world of info on both and there benefits, but what would you say is more beneficial in terms of body composition, to be taken as a daily staple a good dose of vit d say 5000iu, or a daily dose of LCLT at a min of 2-3g per day?
    both of which have benefits in terms of muscle and fat i believe, and can effect T levels AR receptors and fast twitch fibers.

    Thanks Doc.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold
    So could say 500mg of vit c 4times a day with meals inhibit cortisol?

    Obv there is a world of info on both and there benefits, but what would you say is more beneficial in terms of body composition, to be taken as a daily staple a good dose of vit d say 5000iu, or a daily dose of LCLT at a min of 2-3g per day?
    both of which have benefits in terms of muscle and fat i believe, and can effect T levels AR receptors and fast twitch fibers.

    Thanks Doc.
    Get ur base vitamin d, magnesium and zinc levels checked...
    ...::: Olympus Labs Athlete & Representative :::...
    Crossfit - DEMIGOD -

  4. Coop =- Any reaon the ingrediernt used in the study is NOT used in many of the topicals we see on thios board? Aminophyline

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    There is some evidence showing they DO topically reduce fat, but that overall weight is not changed. In other words, they may alter fat storage patterns: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17391155
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Of course diet plays a role. Read the text. Despite the isocaloric, very-low-calorie diet, there was a significant change in bodyfat topically, but BMI remained the same (unfortunately, BMI is a sh!T figure so it's tough to tell what happened). But yes, it appears that topical fat burners, or at least the one used in this study, caused fat redistribution.
    A-Minds HYPE-SLAYER! All posts & feedback are guaranteed to be unsolicited and legit
    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom & instruction"
    Proverbs 1:7

  5. They are fine, simply asking DOC which supp is more beneficial for body comp D or LCLT
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  6. Vitamin D bro!!!!!!
    ...::: Olympus Labs Athlete & Representative :::...
    Crossfit - DEMIGOD -

  7. Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    They are fine, simply asking DOC which supp is more beneficial for body comp D or LCLT
    It's not so simple. If doing intense and prolonged exercise, LCLT is beneficial. If not getting enough sunlight, D is beneficial. Considering a 100 day supply of vitamin D costs $3, it shouldn't even come down to a choice.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Don't agree with this statement at all as it is actually immunoresponsive (read: cortisol-inhibiting) and again we are talking CUMMULATIVE effects - everyone suffers from oxidation (hell, breathing causes oxidation). My encouragement would be to look into orthomolecular dosing protocols and how and why they evolved and come back to this topic.


    D_

    I appreciate the response and will look into what you detailed. However, I feel quite strongly about the statement on cortisol and have done a good bit of research to back it up. It appears that in response to a strong external stressor, vitamin C may normalize cortisol levels, but to take a vitamin C supplement for the PURPOSE of cortisol reduction seems quite moot to me.

    As I stated above, in the presence of intense, prolonged activity, vitamin C spaced away from the training session is a great idea. However, for the recreational bodybuilder who is taking part in weight training and cardio 4x a week, I see no reason to blunt endogenous responses to exercise, which are actually quite valuable in terms of the immune system and all the associated benefits. I do not have full-text access off-campus but I have read this paper before (and perhaps you have as well), and it elucidates the role of exercise-induced ROS quite nicely:

    Exercise and the immune system: regulation, integration, and adaptation.

    Pedersen BK, Hoffman-Goetz L.
    Source

    Department of Infectious Diseases and Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen, Denmark. [email protected]

    Abstract

    Stress-induced immunological reactions to exercise have stimulated much research into stress immunology and neuroimmunology. It is suggested that exercise can be employed as a model of temporary immunosuppression that occurs after severe physical stress. The exercise-stress model can be easily manipulated experimentally and allows for the study of interactions between the nervous, the endocrine, and the immune systems. This review focuses on mechanisms underlying exercise-induced immune changes such as neuroendocrinological factors including catecholamines, growth hormone, cortisol, beta-endorphin, and sex steroids. The contribution of a metabolic link between skeletal muscles and the lymphoid system is also reviewed. The mechanisms of exercise-associated muscle damage and the initiation of the inflammatory cytokine cascade are discussed. Given that exercise modulates the immune system in healthy individuals, considerations of the clinical ramifications of exercise in the prevention of diseases for which the immune system has a role is of importance. Accordingly, drawing on the experimental, clinical, and epidemiological literature, we address the interactions between exercise and infectious diseases as well as exercise and neoplasia within the context of both aging and nutrition

    This one is even more valuable and damn do I wish that I had the full-text on hand because there are some awesome figures laden within it:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...68163707000384

    Exercise, oxidative stress and hormesis
    • Zsolt Radaka, , ,
    • Hae Y. Chungd,
    • Erika Koltaia,
    • Albert W. Taylorb,
    • Sataro Gotoa, c

    Abstract

    Physical inactivity leads to increased incidence of a variety of diseases and it can be regarded as one of the end points of the exercise-associated hormesis curve. On the other hand, regular exercise, with moderate intensity and duration, has a wide range of beneficial effects on the body including the fact that it improves cardio-vascular function, partly by a nitric oxide-mediated adaptation, and may reduce the incidence of Alzheimer's disease by enhanced concentration of neurotrophins and by the modulation of redox homeostasis. Mechanical damage-mediated adaptation results in increased muscle mass and increased resistance to stressors. Physical inactivity or strenuous exercise bouts increase the risk of infection, while moderate exercise up-regulates the immune system. Single bouts of exercise increases, and regular exercise decreases the oxidative challenge to the body, whereas excessive exercise and overtraining lead to damaging oxidative stress and thus are an indication of the other end point of the hormetic response. Based upon the genetic setup, regular moderate physical exercise/activity provides systemic beneficial effects, including improved physiological function, decreased incidence of disease and a higher quality of life.


    In short, a rigorous/regimented training program MORE COMMON to athletes taking part in competitive sports would benefit from the cortisol-lowering capabilities of vitamin C. Recreational BBers will certainly benefit from Vitamin C, but not for cortisol-purposes, and I do not recommend high-dosed supplementation (>2g/day) so that the endogenous antioxidant response can prevail.

    I personally like to spread my Vitamin C as far away from a training session as possible. I'll take 500mg pre-bed on training days and 500mg 3x a day on off-days. I'm not arguing the merits of vitamin C use; I'm arguing that cortisol control is not one of them unless we have a bunch of over-trained board members here .

    Anyway, while we have disagreed on this and a couple other points, we see in-parallel on many topics, and for that reason, I will look into this further. As of now, my feeling is that some levels/forms of oxidation are certainly acceptable and even favorable based on the body's adaptation.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    It's not so simple. If doing intense and prolonged exercise, LCLT is beneficial. If not getting enough sunlight, D is beneficial. Considering a 100 day supply of vitamin D costs $3, it shouldn't even come down to a choice.
    Cost is no issue, i just want to keep the supps down to a minimum and use either or but not both, my training is more the former you mentioned, i use sunbeds weekly so i get amply sun, so want the one that has the most beneficial effect on bodycomp?

  10. [QUOTE=miniarnold;3352917]So could say 500mg of vit c 4times a day with meals inhibit cortisol if it is elevated through physical/mental stress?

  11. Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Cost is no issue, i just want to keep the supps down to a minimum and use either or but not both, my training is more the former you mentioned, i use sunbeds weekly so i get amply sun, so want the one that has the most beneficial effect on bodycomp?
    Asking if something affects body composition is a loaded question. They have benefits that would indirectly benefit body composition, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    So could say 500mg of vit c 4times a day with meals inhibit cortisol if it is elevated through physical/mental stress?
    Yes, I said it could, but the question is: what do we classify as adequate stress? As of now, it appears to be excessive exercise to the point of overtraining (which I hope you would correct LONG BEFORE turning to a single supplement).

  12. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Of course diet plays a role. Read the text. Despite the isocaloric, very-low-calorie diet, there was a significant change in bodyfat topically, but BMI remained the same (unfortunately, BMI is a sh!T figure so it's tough to tell what happened). But yes, it appears that topical fat burners, or at least the one used in this study, caused fat redistribution.


    Thank you for your answer.

    Can Dr. D add some input on this?

  13. [QUOTE=mr.cooper69;3355296]Asking if something affects body composition is a loaded question. They have benefits that would indirectly benefit body composition, yes.

    Understood, but if one can only be used for its bodycomp/muscle/fat benefits, then which would be most beneficial
    daily vit d, or daily LCLT?
    Thanks.

  14. [QUOTE=miniarnold;3357170]
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Asking if something affects body composition is a loaded question. They have benefits that would indirectly benefit body composition, yes.

    Understood, but if one can only be used for its bodycomp/muscle/fat benefits, then which would be most beneficial
    daily vit d, or daily LCLT?
    Thanks.
    Assuming you are like most individuals on this board, indubitably vitamin D.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    [
    Assuming you are like most individuals on this board, indubitably vitamin D.
    Vit d it is then re-starting it as a staple
    also LCLT i believe is very good for the physique in many ways and this is also a worthwhile as a daily staple you think?
    Cheers

  16. Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Vit d it is then re-starting it as a staple
    also LCLT i believe is very good for the physique in many ways and this is also a worthwhile as a daily staple you think?
    Cheers
    Yes it is, but you forced me to pick one lol

  17. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Yes it is, but you forced me to pick one lol
    yes i did thanx for your choice

    how good is LCLT it increases ar receptors, can increase LH, and helps with strength and recovery i think?, i did read a bunch of studies on it a while back poss on pubmed a few studies showing effects after 21 days with 2g of LCLT
    thanx C

  18. Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    yes i did thanx for your choice

    how good is LCLT it increases ar receptors, can increase LH, and helps with strength and recovery i think?, i did read a bunch of studies on it a while back poss on pubmed a few studies showing effects after 21 days with 2g of LCLT
    thanx C
    No, LCLT does not increase LH. By virtue of it's protective effects on xanthine dehydrogenase and hypoxanthine formation, androgen receptor density is preserved in response to exercise.

  19. You all are making me want to try this stuff

    Dose?
    Dosing scheme?
    Does the powder tase bad?


    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    No, LCLT does not increase LH. By virtue of it's protective effects on xanthine dehydrogenase and hypoxanthine formation, androgen receptor density is preserved in response to exercise.
    A-Minds HYPE-SLAYER! All posts & feedback are guaranteed to be unsolicited and legit
    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom & instruction"
    Proverbs 1:7

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    You all are making me want to try this stuff

    Dose?
    Dosing scheme?
    Does the powder tase bad?
    2g LCLT preworkout is all you need, though there is also evidence finding 1g and 4g effective.
    Powder is great, nice, tart, and fishy.

  21. haha great - thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    2g LCLT preworkout is all you need, though there is also evidence finding 1g and 4g effective.
    Powder is great, nice, tart, and fishy.
    A-Minds HYPE-SLAYER! All posts & feedback are guaranteed to be unsolicited and legit
    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom & instruction"
    Proverbs 1:7

  22. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    No, LCLT does not increase LH. By virtue of it's protective effects on xanthine dehydrogenase and hypoxanthine formation, androgen receptor density is preserved in response to exercise.

    I read this on the Lh effects



    Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effects of feeding and L-carnitine.
    Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effec... [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006] - PubMed result

    Abstract

    QUOTE
    PURPOSE: The purpose of this investigation was to determine the effects of 3 wk of L-carnitine L-tartrate (LCLT) supplementation and post-resistance-exercise (RE) feeding on hormonal and androgen receptor (AR) responses. METHODS: Ten resistance-trained men (mean+/-SD: age, 22+/-1 yr; mass, 86.3+/-15.3 kg; height, 181+/-11 cm) supplemented with LCLT (equivalent to 2 g of L-carnitine per day) or placebo (PL) for 21 d, provided muscle biopsies for AR determinations, then performed two RE protocols: one followed by water intake, and one followed by feeding (8 kcal.kg body mass, consisting of 56% carbohydrate, 16% protein, and 28% fat). RE protocols were randomized and included serial blood draws and a 1-h post-RE biopsy. After a 7-d washout period, subjects crossed over, and all experimental procedures were repeated. RESULTS: LCLT supplementation upregulated (P<0.05) preexercise AR content compared with PL (12.9+/-5.9 vs 11.2+/-4.0 au, respectively). RE increased (P<0.05) AR content compared with pre-RE values in the PL trial only. Post-RE feeding significantly increased AR content compared with baseline and water trials for both LCLT and PL. Serum total testosterone concentrations were suppressed (P<0.05) during feeding trials with respect to corresponding water and pre-RE values. Luteinizing hormone demonstrated subtle, yet significant changes in response to feeding and LCLT. CONCLUSION: In summary, these data demonstrated that: 1) feeding after RE increased AR content, which may result in increased testosterone uptake, and thus enhanced luteinizing hormone secretion via feedback mechanisms; and 2) LCLT supplementation upregulated AR content, which may promote recovery from RE.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    You all are making me want to try this stuff
    Yea pls tell us Mr C all the good things LCLT can do in terms of bodycomp benefits does it positivly effect muscle and fat?

    do you use it often and do you notice any benefit from it?
    wana hear all the good stuff b4 i take it as a daily staple, you think its worthwhile, the higher the dose the better?

    Thanks man

  24. Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    I read this on the Lh effects



    Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effects of feeding and L-carnitine.
    Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effec... [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006] - PubMed result

    Abstract

    QUOTE
    PURPOSE: The purpose of this investigation was to determine the effects of 3 wk of L-carnitine L-tartrate (LCLT) supplementation and post-resistance-exercise (RE) feeding on hormonal and androgen receptor (AR) responses. METHODS: Ten resistance-trained men (mean+/-SD: age, 22+/-1 yr; mass, 86.3+/-15.3 kg; height, 181+/-11 cm) supplemented with LCLT (equivalent to 2 g of L-carnitine per day) or placebo (PL) for 21 d, provided muscle biopsies for AR determinations, then performed two RE protocols: one followed by water intake, and one followed by feeding (8 kcal.kg body mass, consisting of 56% carbohydrate, 16% protein, and 28% fat). RE protocols were randomized and included serial blood draws and a 1-h post-RE biopsy. After a 7-d washout period, subjects crossed over, and all experimental procedures were repeated. RESULTS: LCLT supplementation upregulated (P<0.05) preexercise AR content compared with PL (12.9+/-5.9 vs 11.2+/-4.0 au, respectively). RE increased (P<0.05) AR content compared with pre-RE values in the PL trial only. Post-RE feeding significantly increased AR content compared with baseline and water trials for both LCLT and PL. Serum total testosterone concentrations were suppressed (P<0.05) during feeding trials with respect to corresponding water and pre-RE values. Luteinizing hormone demonstrated subtle, yet significant changes in response to feeding and LCLT. CONCLUSION: In summary, these data demonstrated that: 1) feeding after RE increased AR content, which may result in increased testosterone uptake, and thus enhanced luteinizing hormone secretion via feedback mechanisms; and 2) LCLT supplementation upregulated AR content, which may promote recovery from RE.
    Again, that is a secondary effect of LCLT's protective effects on the cell during exercise. It does not increase LH in itself.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by miniarnold View Post
    Yea pls tell us Mr C all the good things LCLT can do in terms of bodycomp benefits does it positivly effect muscle and fat?

    do you use it often and do you notice any benefit from it?
    wana hear all the good stuff b4 i take it as a daily staple, you think its worthwhile, the higher the dose the better?

    Thanks man
    bump
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