Let's talk Ursolic Acid... - AnabolicMinds.com

Let's talk Ursolic Acid...

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    Let's talk Ursolic Acid...


    In support of Patrick's product; I would like to show what part of the ursolic acid research I like. I would hope for some contributing chatter thereafter.

    First, we'll look at some PPAR work (for which I have been meaning to do a separate thread for; time is always an issue unfortunately)...

    Bioorg Med Chem Lett. 2011 Oct 1;21(19):5876-80. Epub 2011 Aug 3.
    Ursolic acid is a PPAR-α agonist that regulates hepatic lipid metabolism.
    Jia Y, Bhuiyan MJ, Jun HJ, Lee JH, Hoang MH, Lee HJ, Kim N, Lee D, Hwang KY, Hwang BY, Choi DW, Lee SJ.
    Source
    Department of Biotechnology, Graduate School of Biotechnology, Korea University, Seoul 136-713, Republic of Korea.
    Abstract
    In this study, we confirmed that ursolic acid, a plant triterpenoid, activates peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor (PPAR)-α in vitro. Surface plasmon resonance and time-resolved fluorescence resonance energy transfer analyses do not show direct binding of ursolic acid to the ligand-binding domain of PPAR-α; however, ursolic acid enhances the binding of PPAR-α to the peroxisome proliferator response element in PPAR-α-responsive genes, alters the expression of key genes in lipid metabolism, significantly reducing intracellular triglyceride and cholesterol concentrations in hepatocytes. Thus, ursolic acid is a PPAR-α agonist that regulates the expression of lipid metabolism genes, but it is not a direct ligand of PPAR-α.
    Copyright 2011 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.
    PMID:
    21855333
    [PubMed - in process]


    PPAR-alpha activation increases the expression of lipoprotein lipase and apolipoprotein A-V (apoA-V) while simultaneously decreasing expression of apoC-III in the liver, which decreases VLDL particles and lowering plasma triglycerides in chylomicrons. These changes liberate fatty acids, allowing them to either be oxidized or stored. This suggests that use of a PPAR-alpha agonist may be beneficial in aiding fat loss. In addition to the change in plasma fatty acid levels, hepatic apoA-I andapoA-II are increased by PPAR-alpha activation, which improves cholesterol levels by increasing HDL levels.


    Now, many may not be familiar with the benefits of elevated HDL cholesterol - however, in my world, HDL trumps all other cholesterol numbers. In cycling bodybuilders...it is the first number to "go bad (lowers)." There are many that harbor an isolated low HDL syndrome and understand that while decreasing LDL holds superiority in clinical trials because we have many drugs that could lower it, the impact in my estimation is simply the anti-inflammatory nature of statins providing the benefit as opposed to true lowering of LDL - and lowering LDL actually constitutes a MINORITY of coronary heart disease in the full spectrum.


    I think in the world of bodybuilding ursolic acid may provide an additional agent of natural HDL increments; alongside niacin. Coupling the two together are probably a good ancillary protocol for anabolic-androgenic-induced dyslipidemia (AAID); although currently I use HMB + Pantothene + Niacin for reasons that are well beyond the scope of this post.


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    Did someone say fat loss???

    Mol Nutr Food Res.
    2010 Nov;54(11):1609-17.

    Ursolic acid stimulates lipolysis in primary-cultured rat adipocytes.
    Li Y, Kang Z, Li S, Kong T, Liu X, Sun C.
    Source
    Department of Nutrition and Food Hygiene, Public Health College, Harbin Medical University, Harbin, PR China.
    Abstract
    Ursolic acid (UA) is a pentacyclic triterpenic acid with many biological functions naturally existing in many kinds of food. To investigate whether UA can accelerate lipolysis, primary-cultured rat adipocytes were treated with UA, and glycerol release in the culture medium was measured. UA stimulated lipolysis significantly. Furthermore, the lipolytic effect of UA was inhibited by the protein kinase A (PKA) specific inhibitor H89, suggesting that UA exerted its lipolytic function through the cAMP-dependent PKA pathway. Downstream targets of the PKA pathway, hormone-sensitive lipase (HSL) and perilipin A were checked, UA enhanced lipolysis by promoting the translocation of HSL from the cytosol to the lipid droplets and inhibiting the expression of perilipin A. Additionally, adipose triglyceride lipase (ATGL), a novel rate-limiting lipase in the lipolytic catabolism, was upregulated by UA. UA-induced expression of ATGL could not be blocked by H89, suggesting that ATGL upregulation is not regulated by the PKA pathway. These findings suggest that UA significantly stimulates lipolysis by translocating HSL, decreasing perilipin A expression by the PKA pathway, and up-regulating ATGL in primary cultured adipocytes. Thus, UA is a promising candidate for the treatment of obesity.
    PMID:
    20521271
    [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Accelerated atherosclerosis in advanced disease states>>>Couple this with HDL-elevation mechanisms already discussed.

    Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 17. [Epub ahead of print]
    Ursolic acid protects diabetic mice against monocyte dysfunction and accelerated atherosclerosis.
    Ullevig SL, Zhao Q, Zamora D, Asmis R.
    Source
    Department of Biochemistry, University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, San Antonio, TX 78229-3900, United States.
    Abstract
    AIMS:
    Accelerated atherosclerosis is a major diabetic complication initiated by the enhanced recruitment of monocytes into the vasculature. In this study, we examined the therapeutic potential of the phytonutrients ursolic acid (UA) and resveratrol (RES) in preventing monocyte recruitment and accelerated atherosclerosis.
    METHODS AND RESULTS:
    Dietary supplementation with either RES or UA (0.2%) protected against accelerated atherosclerosis induced by streptozotocin in high-fat diet-fed LDL receptor-deficient mice. However, mice that received dietary UA for 11 weeks were significantly better protected and showed a 53% reduction in lesion formation while mice fed a RES-supplemented diet showed only a 31% reduction in lesion size. Importantly, UA was also significantly more effective in preventing the appearance of proinflammatory GR-1(high) monocytes induced by these diabetic conditions and reducing monocyte recruitment into MCP-1-loaded Matrigel plugs implanted into these diabetic mice. Oxidatively stressed THP-1 monocytes mimicked the behavior of blood monocytes in diabetic mice and showed enhanced responsiveness to monocyte chemoattractant protein-1 (MCP-1) without changing MCP-1 receptor (CCR2) surface expression. Pretreatment of THP-1 monocytes with RES or UA (0.3-10μM) for 15h resulted in the dose-dependent inhibition of H(2)O(2)-accelerated chemotaxis in response to MCP-1, but with an IC(50) of 0.4μM, UA was 2.7-fold more potent than RES.
    CONCLUSION:
    Dietary UA is a potent inhibitor of monocyte dysfunction and accelerated atherosclerosis induced by diabetes. These studies identify ursolic acid as a potential therapeutic agent for the treatment of diabetic complications, including accelerated atherosclerosis, and provide a novel mechanism for the anti-atherogenic properties of ursolic acid.
    Copyright 2011 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved.
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    do the studies mention UA dose? the only product available that can be discussed is ursobolic, unless holy basil is as effective, and people are still trying to figure the right dose for it. so far from user feedback it is taking around 4 weeks to notice slight fat loss but not significant to justify the price. it is like a mild fat burner at best so it is not the better option as a fat loss supplement. that leaves its use for other health benefits, but the 9/day dose is unattractive.
    what other products/herbs would you recommend as a source for ursobolic acid?
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    What about concern for its impact on fertility?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fadi View Post
    do the studies mention UA dose? the only product available that can be discussed is ursobolic, unless holy basil is as effective, and people are still trying to figure the right dose for it. so far from user feedback it is taking around 4 weeks to notice slight fat loss but not significant to justify the price. it is like a mild fat burner at best so it is not the better option as a fat loss supplement. that leaves its use for other health benefits, but the 9/day dose is unattractive.
    what other products/herbs would you recommend as a source for ursobolic acid?
    Ive been on it for over 6 weeks with not much to show for it. Ive been hoping for it to be a long term thing, for it to take a little longer to kick in since its a natural supplement.

    Or it could me that it isnt as good as loquat
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    The price of the product isn't justifiable to the "results". People seem to have to look for the actual results and pick things out that may or may not have happened as a result of Ursobolic. Rat studies don't transfer well to humans. Personally I wouldn't spend a dime on Ursobolic. Well unless there is some drastic drop in price or change in formula to make the product actually work.
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    Ok, so the big question centers on Ursobolic and whether it's dosed appropriately....

    3-6 capsules at 150mg/3 caps suggested up to 3 times per day or a total daily dose of 150-900mg per day. I certainly understand how that could prove cost-prohibitive for what people may be able to afford with only 40 servings - or at highest-end use you would need 4 bottles per month!!! But that's not necessary for efficacy if you paw through the over 700 trials on the compound.

    Now - safety would be what: While studies have used dosages ranging from 10-3000mg, the average treatment dosage from over 700 trials appears to be between 250-500mg/day. Many products on market are from herbal extracts like Holy Basil (which only yields about 2.5% ursolic acid; mind you there are other good things about Holy Basil, but this is beyond the scope of this post).



    Quote Originally Posted by itzDodge View Post
    What about concern for its impact on fertility?
    Yes, this is a potential concern although it hasn't been studied nearly enough (sounds like the rest of the industry there though). Ursolic acid, when fed to rats at 5 mg/kg bodyweight (or HED of .8 mg/kg -or- 56 mg for the 70 kg person if this translates exact) was able to cause impotence by inhibiting spermatogenesis. Specifically, the way they measured this in the single trial was the number of symplasts in the seminiferous tubules associated with male infertility were quantified and an ASSOCIATION was made. Understand, the effect is both self-limited (if replicated at all)...in other words, it goes away with cessation of use. We know that this does NOT appear to cause long-term damage to the testes and as such - maybe at best you do NOT count on pregnancy while on the product. But, keep in mind with 700 trials using effciacious dosing protocols (inclusive of humans); this effect has NOT been replicated in humans.
    Akbarsha, M. A., Palanisamy, M., Murugaian, P. and Lakshmi Latha, P. N. (1998), Ursolic acid generates symplasts in rat spermatogenic clones. Phytotherapy Research, 12: 3236.


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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    The price of the product isn't justifiable to the "results". People seem to have to look for the actual results and pick things out that may or may not have happened as a result of Ursobolic. Rat studies don't transfer well to humans. Personally I wouldn't spend a dime on Ursobolic. Well unless there is some drastic drop in price or change in formula to make the product actually work.
    You may have more experience viewing the logs; let me take a quick perusal for a minute.

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    D,

    In every thread i put out to you on rats etc, you dismissed.

    So why would you be using those and not human studies?
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    I like holy basil 4:1 extract, can parachute half tablespoon 3x a day and get a hefty dose, actually feels great to dose that pre workout.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    D,

    In every thread i put out to you on rats etc, you dismissed.

    So why would you be using those and not human studies?
    Whoa! I did NOT dismiss them for being a rat study per se nor do I know which studies you are referencing; you actually pointed to a human trial I believe with Fulvic Acid and frankly, I still pointed out it's shortcomings. You didn't see me cite 700 studies in here did you; but over 700 exist for ursolic acid; I posted some studies I thought were done ok and postulated interesting mechanistic offering; that's it - suggesting people offer up some chatter.

    The last thing I did here is show a study that everyone on the ursobolic anti-fertility camp centers discussion on; a study done in rats. I followed up by saying we have NOTHING in humans; NOTHING, but fertility was asked about; so I figured going to the center of that concern was appropriate and fortunate or unfortunate...it's a rat study.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    I like holy basil 4:1 extract, can parachute half tablespoon 3x a day and get a hefty dose, actually feels great to dose that pre workout.
    I don't disagree; I too like holy basil. There were a string of infertility studies from the 1970s (ursolic acid? no idea) with holy basil. The problem is they were never replicated after that timeframe.

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    its benefits outweigh risks IMO.

    All antiviral studies shown are incredible. reducing glucocorticoid induced hyperglycemia is also a plus. could work well for adrenaline resistant and leptin resistant individuals as a high dose solo product.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Whoa! I did NOT dismiss them for being a rat study per se nor do I know which studies you are referencing; you actually pointed to a human trial I believe with Fulvic Acid and frankly, I still pointed out it's shortcomings. You didn't see me cite 700 studies in here did you; but over 700 exist for ursolic acid; I posted some studies I thought were done ok and postulated interesting mechanistic offering; that's it - suggesting people offer up some chatter.

    The last thing I did here is show a study that everyone on the ursobolic anti-fertility camp centers discussion on; a study done in rats. I followed up by saying we have NOTHING in humans; NOTHING, but fertility was asked about; so I figured going to the center of that concern was appropriate and fortunate or unfortunate...it's a rat study.


    D_
    I did it in the leptin thread with Vanadium and leptin sensitivity. and other things about leptin in leptin thread,

    Andrew did the one on fulvic acid.

    i think benefits are ate moderat dose for month at a time. 150-600mg was a good dosing, probably best year round.
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    Any performance/metabolic advantages of dosing UA preWO...? as in a preWO meal (45-60min pre) (provided enough fat was consumed for UA solubility)

    Also curious about any synergy of running UA on cycle with a PH...more than just it's already favorable anitoxidant & positive influence on lipid profiles, that tend to go down when using oral ph's (particularly the methyl's)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    its benefits outweigh risks IMO.
    This is a statement I cannot contest even in an objective manner.


    All antiviral studies shown are incredible. reducing glucocorticoid induced hyperglycemia is also a plus. could work well for adrenaline resistant and leptin resistant individuals as a high dose solo product.
    I agree.


    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    I did it in the leptin thread with Vanadium and leptin sensitivity. and other things about leptin in leptin thread,

    Andrew did the one on fulvic acid.
    Whoops (blushing); so it was. My apologies. I would have to review the leptin thread to recall our interactions and why I might have poo-poo'd some studies there. I don't recall off hand while I am responding to this.


    i think benefits are ate moderat dose for month at a time. 150-600mg was a good dosing, probably best year round.
    Probably closer to the higher end you present, if not higher. It was no accident that E offered upwards of 900mg.

    I don't know that anyone could say, with 100% certainty that "year-round" is ideal; not based on the data we had...but I would be intrigued if you would make yourself a guinea pig (shoot, I have made myself my own guinea pig over the years for 100s of different ingredients).


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    This is a statement I cannot contest even in an objective manner.




    I agree.




    Whoops (blushing); so it was. My apologies. I would have to review the leptin thread to recall our interactions and why I might have poo-poo'd some studies there. I don't recall off hand while I am responding to this.




    Probably closer to the higher end you present, if not higher. It was no accident that E offered upwards of 900mg.

    I don't know that anyone could say, with 100% certainty that "year-round" is ideal; not based on the data we had...but I would be intrigued if you would make yourself a guinea pig (shoot, I have made myself my own guinea pig over the years for 100s of different ingredients).


    D_
    id use it for a year at2 g a day if i had a bulk powdered source.

    wouldnt bother me any.
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    What about the poor kinetics? It seems administration/delivery methods need some improvement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    id use it for a year at2 g a day if i had a bulk powdered source.

    wouldnt bother me any.
    I sense that about you. We need more of you actually; not because I am into making you the "sacrificial lamb" or anything...but sometimes, in the name of science, people outside of this industry (cult) of ours just might not understand.


    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    What about the poor kinetics? It seems administration/delivery methods need some improvement.
    I don't disagree with this either; this is something that need be addressed. I'm just not certain how to at this time as I am uncertain it has ever been looked into to my liking. Unfortunately, large doses are probably necessity and doses I have suggested in this thread are - to the best of my knowledge - the ones that are used in the literature in an oral fashion. I could easily anticipate lowering the dosage if better bioavailability existed (much is the case with anything though).


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    A year @ 1g sounds very doable. Bulk for sure if available. Though if this could make my cholesterol levels and be an anti inflammatory, then perhaps I could buy this instead of a couple other staples I use and still be able to run it at a PA's price for a year. I'm actually thinking about doing that now. I have around 16 bottles...
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    What is your opinion on the stroke problem with this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlucks View Post
    What is your opinion on the stroke problem with this?
    Never heard of it or anyone having heart attacks while on UA. Who told you that and what did they say?
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    well D, if you need someone like me around im willing. its fun. i push several limits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal2 View Post
    Never heard of it or anyone having heart attacks while on UA. Who told you that and what did they say?
    there was a study shown to cause strokes, it was posted on phf
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlucks View Post
    there was a study shown to cause strokes, it was posted on phf
    That's interesting seeing how there are many studies inclusive of those posted in this thread that show it to be anti-atherogenic. Unfortunately, I am unaware of this study...perhaps someone would be so kind as to re-post from there or offer a source?


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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    A year @ 1g sounds very doable. Bulk for sure if available. Though if this could make my cholesterol levels and be an anti inflammatory, then perhaps I could buy this instead of a couple other staples I use and still be able to run it at a PA's price for a year. I'm actually thinking about doing that now. I have around 16 bottles...
    I'd be tuning in for sure...


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    That's interesting seeing how there are many studies inclusive of those posted in this thread that show it to be anti-atherogenic. Unfortunately, I am unaware of this study...perhaps someone would be so kind as to re-post from there or offer a source?


    D_
    here is what I found so far

    "Ursolic acid causes DNA-damage, P53-mediated, mitochondria- and caspase-dependent human endothelial cell apoptosis, and accelerates atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo."Messner B, Zeller I, Ploner C, Frotschnig S, Ringer T, Steinacher-Nigisch A, Ritsch A, Laufer G, Huck C, Bernhard D.
    Source
    Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 22

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21703625
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlucks View Post
    here is what I found so far

    "Ursolic acid causes DNA-damage, P53-mediated, mitochondria- and caspase-dependent human endothelial cell apoptosis, and accelerates atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo."Messner B, Zeller I, Ploner C, Frotschnig S, Ringer T, Steinacher-Nigisch A, Ritsch A, Laufer G, Huck C, Bernhard D.
    Source
    Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 22

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21703625

    Saying that that study shows that ursolic acid causes strokes is about as irresponsible a statement as if i were to say these following two studies shows that ursolic acid prevents stroke

    Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 17. [Epub ahead of print]
    Ursolic acid protects diabetic mice against monocyte dysfunction and accelerated atherosclerosis.

    Ullevig SL, Zhao Q, Zamora D, Asmis R.
    Source

    Department of Biochemistry, University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, San Antonio, TX 78229-3900, United States



    J Ethnopharmacol. 2003 Feb;84(2-3):299-305.
    Antihypertensive, antiatherosclerotic and antioxidant activity of triterpenoids isolated from Olea europaea, subspecies africana leaves.

    Somova LI, Shode FO, Ramnanan P, Nadar A.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlucks View Post
    here is what I found so far

    "Ursolic acid causes DNA-damage, P53-mediated, mitochondria- and caspase-dependent human endothelial cell apoptosis, and accelerates atherosclerotic plaque formation in vivo."Messner B, Zeller I, Ploner C, Frotschnig S, Ringer T, Steinacher-Nigisch A, Ritsch A, Laufer G, Huck C, Bernhard D.
    Source
    Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun 22

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21703625

    Just like pa said, and what dana posted on the first page, those studies say the opposite.
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    Yeah, I just got my hands on the original article (in full txt) of what you suggest. I will have to try and set some time aside to truly evaluate it. It is good that they used ApoE knockouts, but I almost wish they had used ApoE knockins for comparison. I am happy Patrick chimed in as I was trying to say the same thing (don't believe I used both citations but I did use one in the aforementioned body of this thread). Alas, I digress until I read the study you pose in full...at least at this point, I can say no more than the results are "interesting" seeing how they are a direct contrast to studies we already had. But really I am trying to take this as objectively as I can guys so I will evaluate the study in full before drawing any kind of conclusion; not just rest on the laurels of other researchers' interpretation. Ask Patrick, when he and I evaluated studies together; I am very cautious on interpretation as some authors sort of - statistically fudge the data to get the end result they want in some studies and so on...we have talked about this in this subforum in other threads even. It doesn't mean by any stretch that we should denounce the study...for now, and for those keeping score in this thread ... it's anti-atherogenicity 2 vs. atherogenicity 1

    Just give me some time though to really tear into it. I have about 13 other studies on my desk right now that I am reviewing for other products and a book I am writing at the moment on testosterone decline through aging for a product Patrick is aware of. Let me paw through it in the next few days and by all means, do NOT let this stop chatter on this very interesting ingredient.

    I would have hated to leave this too long seeing how it could have gotten heated without some notion that I was going to evaluate in full.


    D_
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    The contradictory results from the different studies are actually discussed in this article

    Atherosclerosis. 2011 Sep 28. [Epub ahead of print]
    Ursolic acid effect on atherosclerosis: Apples and apples, or apples and oranges?

    Tannock LR.
    Source

    Division of Endocrinology and Molecular Medicine, University of Kentucky, Lexington, KY, USA; Department of Veterans Affairs, Lexington, KY, USA.

    PMID: 21993411 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    The contradictory results from the different studies are actually discussed in this article

    Atherosclerosis. 2011 Sep 28. [Epub ahead of print]
    Ursolic acid effect on atherosclerosis: Apples and apples, or apples and oranges?

    Tannock LR.
    Source

    Division of Endocrinology and Molecular Medicine, University of Kentucky, Lexington, KY, USA; Department of Veterans Affairs, Lexington, KY, USA.

    PMID: 21993411 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
    Thanks Patrick!

    Let me grab a copy of this one too, so I am fully informed as I mentioned to you contemplating use of the agent in higher dose myself.


    D_
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Yeah, I just got my hands on the original article (in full txt) of what you suggest. I will have to try and set some time aside to truly evaluate it. It is good that they used ApoE knockouts, but I almost wish they had used ApoE knockins for comparison. I am happy Patrick chimed in as I was trying to say the same thing (don't believe I used both citations but I did use one in the aforementioned body of this thread). Alas, I digress until I read the study you pose in full...at least at this point, I can say no more than the results are "interesting" seeing how they are a direct contrast to studies we already had. But really I am trying to take this as objectively as I can guys so I will evaluate the study in full before drawing any kind of conclusion; not just rest on the laurels of other researchers' interpretation. Ask Patrick, when he and I evaluated studies together; I am very cautious on interpretation as some authors sort of - statistically fudge the data to get the end result they want in some studies and so on...we have talked about this in this subforum in other threads even. It doesn't mean by any stretch that we should denounce the study...for now, and for those keeping score in this thread ... it's anti-atherogenicity 2 vs. atherogenicity 1

    Just give me some time though to really tear into it. I have about 13 other studies on my desk right now that I am reviewing for other products and a book I am writing at the moment on testosterone decline through aging for a product Patrick is aware of. Let me paw through it in the next few days and by all means, do NOT let this stop chatter on this very interesting ingredient.

    I would have hated to leave this too long seeing how it could have gotten heated without some notion that I was going to evaluate in full.


    D_
    thanks D. Yes there are other studies that contradict it, BUT right we cant denounce it and pretend that it didn't happen or that they're liars.

    Looking forward to what you have to say
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    I've since changed my mind on this product and I'm giving it a try at 18 caps per day. Hopefully that is a high enough dosage. If I start to see great results I will purchase more when I run low.
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    This ingredient seems to be working its way into a lot of new products. Patrick must be right about this one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Ok, so the big question centers on Ursobolic and whether it's dosed appropriately....

    3-6 capsules at 150mg/3 caps suggested up to 3 times per day or a total daily dose of 150-900mg per day. I certainly understand how that could prove cost-prohibitive for what people may be able to afford with only 40 servings - or at highest-end use you would need 4 bottles per month!!! But that's not necessary for efficacy if you paw through the over 700 trials on the compound.

    Now - safety would be what: While studies have used dosages ranging from 10-3000mg, the average treatment dosage from over 700 trials appears to be between 250-500mg/day. Many products on market are from herbal extracts like Holy Basil (which only yields about 2.5% ursolic acid; mind you there are other good things about Holy Basil, but this is beyond the scope of this post).


    So if the participants got results at that dosage a dosage of between 500-900mg should certainly be effective, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    So if the participants got results at that dosage a dosage of between 500-900mg should certainly be effective, right?
    I am currently running this on my Mdrol cycle for the liver/heart protection. I will throughout my PCT then get bloods. I will post them in my log later when I get them in about 8 weeks.
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    i tried up to 9 a day of epharms product i took it while deployed, running 10 miles a week and caloric deficit. the problem is i was taking 10 day that is economically unobtainable for me to go any higher
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