Fibers effects on ketosis?

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so i was looking into isomalto oligosaccharides in products, and its obvious this is what the quest bar uses...

for example 20g carb 16 fiber (not real number just an example of how high in fibner it is..)

also flax seed meal (4gcarb 4g fiber per 2 tablespoon).

what are the effects of it on ketosis if lets say you consume 25-30 carbs and 75% of the carbs are fiber. will it throw you out of ketosis? more importantly what if taken in one meal like a quest protein bar..

i usually dont consume more then 30g in a day 75% all from fiber generally however i was just wondering if it all came in one meal if it has an effect.

either way i take all meals with a GDA so im probably good to go anyway due to a glucosidase activity of the product.

i know the cals are somewhere around 2.5 per gram.

but they are also fermented into short chain fats which during exercise has the predfesposition to create ketone bodies fairly quick. Would fiber benifit ketosis if taken pre meal to increase ketone bodies and energy? (based on below) and a breif summary on the 2nd link i posted
http://www.springerlink.com/content/v527511673547k29/
http://jap.physiology.org/content/88/1/219.full.pdf

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i know your a busy dude so i want to bump this just so it doesnt get lost among threads
get to it when u can

[dinoiii]

Dammit; I responded at length yesterday and for whatever reason this one didn't end up posting. I gotta start doing them in Word format and transferring them over.

Gotta take a raincheck until tomorrow on re-response unfortunately...but I hate to leave things without response if they have been here a few days so I did feel like I wanted to make a comment to let you know I have to repost something here.


D_

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thanx d

look forward to responce.

[MAxximal]

in for this

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bump doc?

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sorry to bump this again.

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sorry doc

[dinoiii]

I apologize for the lag in response to this thread. I do want to respond; but recalling what my original response was and how long it took to respond, I have to wait for enough time to open up to respond to something like this. I will try and get to this by day's end.


D_

[kingdong]

bump

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bump

[dinoiii]

Ha! This one keeps getting bumped and then 10 threads appear before it again.

I am going to take a second to respond (not as in-depth as my original response that was erased...but alas, with time allotment, I digress)...

So, many employ CKD vs. Strict ketogenic because of many benefits, so I will use a CKD with focus on both periods as my examples:

LOW-CARB/NO-CARB: Fiber is a non-digestable "macronutrient"...likely little impact on blood sugar, BUT it can slow the digestion of proteins causing a delay in blood sugar response and creating a bigger problem with subsequent meals (read: subgluconeogenic threshold being reached and possibly surpassed). Some people find that they need to get even fiber CLOSE TO ZERO; others don't struggle with even 50 grams.

The recommended fiber intake is 20 - 35 grams per day for adults, or 10 - 13 grams for every 1,000 calories in the diet. This recommended amount should come from a combination of soluble and insoluble fiber, since each type provides different benefits. While it's not necessary to track, a 3:1 ratio of insoluble to soluble fiber is typical. Although neither type is absorbed by the body, they have different properties when mixed with water, hence the designation between the two. However, due to overlap in function between the two types and disparities in measurements of each depending on the method used, the National Academy of Sciences has recommended that these terms "gradually be eliminated and replaced by specific beneficial physiological effects of a fiber". Thus you may hear less about "soluble vs. insoluble fiber" in the future.

Soluble fiber is "soluble" in water. When mixed with water it forms a gel-like substance and swells. Soluble fiber has many benefits, including moderating blood glucose levels and lowering cholesterol. The scientific names for soluble fibers include pectins, gums, mucilages, and some hemicelluloses. Good sources of soluble fiber include oats and oatmeal, legumes (peas, beans, lentils), barley, fruits and vegetables (especially oranges, apples and carrots). The most commonly-employed soluble fiber people incorporate on low-carb diets are psyllium (Metamucil).

Insoluble fiber does not absorb or dissolve in water. It passes through our digestive system in close to its original form. Insoluble fiber offers many benefits to intestinal health, including a reduction in the risk and occurrence of colorectal cancer (although research out of Washington St. Louis suggests the contrary), hemorrhoids, and constipation. The scientific names for insoluble fibers include cellulose, lignins, and also some other hemicelluloses. Most of insoluble fibers come from the bran layers of cereal grains.

Why do I even go through the trouble and make this designation here. From working with clients; I am convinced that it is the SOLUBLE fiber that has the worst effect on blood sugar contradictory to what most are trying to accomplish. It's kind of the reason I feel leafy greens (insoluble) are the single best fiber you can use on a low-carb scheme. Nuts (outside of cashews) are the ONLY soluble fiber I usually allow once or twice per day on a low-carb plan. There are some "mixed" soluble/insolubles that I am "ok" with if you can't avoid it like: cucumbers and celery (relatively calorie-free and could play a role in staving off hunger, which may be the only reason I am ok with reaching for these versus other things in this setting).


CARB-UP: A quick word on fiber on a carb-up; it's ok except for the first few meals each day (after your carb depletion workout) and then on Sunday [although I think I have outlined this for you]...say the first two after you wake up. Those should be predominantly SIMPLE carbs and a little fructose (piece of fruit) for hepatic (liver) stores of glycogen...for which fructose has a predilection. So - early on; simple carbs, no to little fiber!!! Later, it likely won't matter.


D_

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you said this....

LOW-CARB/NO-CARB: Fiber is a non-digestable "macronutrient"...likely little impact on blood sugar, BUT it can slow the digestion of proteins causing a delay in blood sugar response and creating a bigger problem with subsequent meals (read: subgluconeogenic threshold being reached and possibly surpassed). Some people find that they need to get even fiber CLOSE TO ZERO; others don't struggle with even 50 grams.


now what is subgluconeogenic threshold

also soluble fiber has 2.5 cals per gram but in small intestine is formed to short chain fats and absorbed.. wouldnt that help create ketones via portal circulation and quick oxidation by liver (into ketones) similar to MCTS (note the 2 links at the top). Thus showing pre workout would be best for soluble fiber.

What if you eat all your calories in 2 meals. and you consume 30g carbs (20 of it being fiber) in each meal. mixture of soluble and insoluble. would that kick you out of ketosis due to sheer amount of carbs regardless of fiber amounts? my theory says no. however, i feel ketostix are ****ty anyway, therefore i dont use them, glucometers are usually off by 20 points unless you have a really good one.

soo how do you feel about that>?