Glucose Disposal Agents - Q&A with Dr. Dana Houser

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    Glucose Disposal Agents - Q&A with Dr. Dana Houser


    D. what did you think about GDA? i know has more but i decide start with this let`s discussion.


    Vanadyl Sulfate

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00027-0083.pdf

    Vanadyl Sulfate true method of action for increasing Insulin Sensitivity mainly via reduction of gluconeogenesis (Hepatic Glucose output) among other positive contributing factors?


    Some GDA compounds potentiate insulin release from pancreatic beta cells such as Gymnemic Acid (Gymnemma Sylvestre), for example, which does so by increasing beta cell permeability.

    http://joe.endocrinology-journals.or....full.pdf+html

    Corosolic acid method of action directly via IR signaling pathway. I'll post the full Study PDF below. It's very interesting and shows a few scenarios. Corosolic Acid was able to directly stimulate IR phosphorylation signaling events without insulin. It was also seen to enhances these signaling events in varying concentrations of Insulin as well. On top of that, when pretreatment was done with Wortmannin, a PI3-kinase inhibitor, the effect of CA on glucose uptake was completely abolished. Wortmannin btw, is a direct inhibitor of IR mediated signaling events.

    Corosolic acid stimulates glucose uptake via enhancing insulin receptor phosphorylation

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...14299908000691


    Berberine

    Berberine mimics insulin action by increasing glucose uptake ability by 3T3-L1 adipocytes (fat cells) and L6 myocytes (muscle cells) in an insulin-independent manner. Furthering this mimicking process, berberine inhibits activity of protein tyrosine phosphatase 1B (an important negative regulator of insulin and leptin signaling in vivo). It also increases phosphorylation in 3T3-L1 adipocytes. In diabetic mice, berberine lowers hyperglycemia and improves impaired glucose tolerance, but does not increase insulin release and synthesis. The results suggest that berberine represents a different class of anti-hyperglycemic agents.

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    This is a copied portion of a larger article I wrote - published first on-line November 5, 2005...but I felt this to be an appropriate starting point since it is probably the last time I spoke about GDAs at any length (well let's end the 6-year drought because a LOT has even changed since then).

    Glucose Disposable C-o-c-ktail (GDC)

    Unfortunately, in 1996, the best insulinomimetic agent was NOT as readily available as today. Two years later, Lyle McDonald introduced the concept of Alpha Lipoic Acid’s inclusion in cyclic ketogenic diets. Fast forward to 2005, there are potassium salts and dihydronated versions that are VERY advanced. Alpha Lipoic Acid variations remain one of my favorite fat-loss supplements or perhaps, more appropriately recompositioning agent. I place it FAR ABOVE stimulants, thermogenics, lipolytics, and/or thyroid stimulating agents. Unfortunately, compliance with its somewhat timely usage is less than stellar and often turns away people who are unaware of how to use it.

    Therefore, the first agent in our GDC is either K-R-ALA or alternatively R-DHLA. For this experiment, I found the K-R-ALA in Glucophase XR to be a great addition.

    Some people may be asking, what in the world is R-DHLA. This compound is the reduced form of the compound. When R-ALA is administered orally, it quickly crosses cellular membranes to enter cells where it is rapidly converted into this reduced form. The interesting part of this product despite its hypothesized immediate usability by the body in this form allows LESS active component to cross membranes to act. Therefore, the potassium salt in its stable form remains the superior product.

    The next agent to close out our GDC is simple Cinnamon Extract. The use of this agent does not contribute to a huge gap in your wallet and actually proves MUCH more effective than the much more expensive agents on the market. This is simply a cost-effective strategy as you should be able to purchase 500mg of Cinnamon Extract (4:1) for under $10.

    I think it is safe to say that Vanadium, although potentially effective in large doses, is NOT financially feasible to mimic what science shows would likely be required to see an effect compared to supplements that still offer this compound. Saying this in a different way – much of the research with this compound has of course been done on diabetics. This research was not available to Duchaine 10 years ago. Had it been, he likely would not have suggested its use, I am sure in his book. Research has supported that 150mg/kg BW/d is needed to have an effect in Type II diabetics, it would seem that even a higher dose would be needed to influence glucose metabolism in active people. The only application that tested Vanadium ingestion in weight-trained individuals I am aware of is the Fawcett, et al study (published, incidentally just months after the publication of BodyOpus) in 1996. It tested the effects of 0.5mg/kg BW/d on weight-trained subjects. The subjects weighed from 70kg – 90kg, so average Vanadium sulfate intake was 40mg/dl or less. No significant effects were seen on body composition. For the price, I cannot therefore realistically endorse its use.

    With Chromium, an additional suggestion in the original BodyOpus plan, much debate has erupted over this mineral. Never before had I seen actual grown men of the scientific community in potential fist fights over a mineral’s ingestion like conferences in the late 80’s/early 90’s. There is likely some merit to this. My only comments are, unless you are either an obese woman or part of a clinical population (i.e. – diabetic, etc...), you will likely see MINIMAL if any benefit from additional ingestion.

    I say this with the addition of the following caveat. Research has shown that the exercising population may suffer from chromium being excreted in the urine. This can create a situation where active people may need more chromium. Now, I would hope found within your multi-vitamins/minerals – you will find adequate extra tallies of this compound. Outside of that and as part of a GDC – NOT NECESSARY!

    Summary of our simple, economical GDC: K-R-ALA + Cinnamon Extract.
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    Are you saying K-r-ala is superior than na-r-ala?

    Also what are your thoughts on gymnema sylvestre?
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    Obviously since 2005; sodium salts have trumped potassium salts for ALA superiority at least in potency. However, the fact remains - this is single-handedly the best compound to use regardless of all the schnazzy herbal this and that touted by supplement manufacturers trying to make "novel" preps.

    Another key is to NOT use them on "carb-ups" of a CKD. In other words, if you are following a 5-keto/2-carb-up protocol; your week would look like this:

    M-F: GDC
    S + S: N/A; in fact, you are looking for the glycemic response to run "amok" these days.

    But, lets talk about some of the other agents you suggest Max...


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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Are you saying K-r-ala is superior than na-r-ala?

    No, that was a quote from an article in 2005...then I moved on to two key concepts that evolved in the last 6 years thereafter. I was just typing when you responded is all.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Unfortunately, compliance with its somewhat timely usage is less than stellar and often turns away people who are unaware of how to use it.
    Can you elaborate more on this? i.e timing protocols
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    No, that was a quote from an article in 2005...then I moved on to two key concepts that evolved in the last 6 years thereafter. I was just typing when you responded is all.


    D_
    ok.. I was just curious on your opinion. I have read before that k-r-ala is supposedly superior but honestly dont know for sure.

    I buy Na-r-ala simply because of convenience (nutraplanet carries it in bulk) I actually have a bunch of caps that I made which consist of 25 grams of NaRALA, 100 grams of yellow gold (berberine) & 50 grams of Cassia Cinnamon. I just bought the cinnamon sticks and ground them up. I read in some book that cassia cinnamon was the better cinnamon to use I forget why and what book though
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    D. what did you think about GDA? i know has more but i decide start with this let`s discussion.


    Vanadyl Sulfate

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00027-0083.pdf

    Vanadyl Sulfate true method of action for increasing Insulin Sensitivity mainly via reduction of gluconeogenesis (Hepatic Glucose output) among other positive contributing factors?
    Vandium - ironically - was mistaken for another form of chromium when discovered in the early 19th century. One of the hardest of all metals, it is never found in a pure state, but always in a compound form with other elements.

    Scientists still aren't sure about the exact contribution of vanadium to our diet, BUT vanadium deficiency can cause insulin resistance.

    Though bodybuilders and people with diabetes have taken a form of vanadium, vanadyl sulfate, to improve the way insulin works (insulin sensitivity), there still is no proof it does this in humans outside of non-insulin dependent diabetics and that was a solitary paper from 1995. What vanadium probably does is mimic the action of insulin by turning on the insulin receptor through serine and threonine kinases. However, another form of the element, vanadate, is not recommended because of toxic effects, ranging from anemia and green tongue to cataracts and death. Previously in 1985 - vanadium gained a lot of press because a report in Science showed that if you put large doses of supplemental vanadium in the drinking water of rats that had been made diabetic, their blood sugar returned to normal! Subsequent experiments proved toxic because the amounts were just too high and most of the animals were killed.

    I don't know that vanadyl sulfate is economical for most in quantities that would actually DO anything. See absorption of vanadyl sulfate through the gut wall is TERRIBLE, which is probably the fortunate reasoning behind why not many human toxicity cases ever surfaced. Some of the original researchers subsequently turned to less toxic forms that you may be familiar with in products on the market like bismaltolato-oxovanadium; but again to suggest we know how to truly use it - is at best - preliminary.

    I don't usually like vanadium supplements, but I do recommend bodybuilders invest in their natural sources: beets, black pepper, buckwheat, carrots, dill, eggs, fish, milk, mushrooms, oats, olive oil, radishes, parsley, shellfish, soybeans, sunflower oil, and whole weat.

    Summary: Vanadium and said salts - skip it!



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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Vandium - ironically - was mistaken for another form of chromium when discovered in the early 19th century. One of the hardest of all metals, it is never found in a pure state, but always in a compound form with other elements.

    Scientists still aren't sure about the exact contribution of vanadium to our diet, BUT vanadium deficiency can cause insulin resistance.

    Though bodybuilders and people with diabetes have taken a form of vanadium, vanadyl sulfate, to improve the way insulin works (insulin sensitivity), there still is no proof it does this in humans outside of non-insulin dependent diabetics and that was a solitary paper from 1995. What vanadium probably does is mimic the action of insulin by turning on the insulin receptor through serine and threonine kinases. However, another form of the element, vanadate, is not recommended because of toxic effects, ranging from anemia and green tongue to cataracts and death. Previously in 1985 - vanadium gained a lot of press because a report in Science showed that if you put large doses of supplemental vanadium in the drinking water of rats that had been made diabetic, their blood sugar returned to normal! Subsequent experiments proved toxic because the amounts were just too high and most of the animals were killed.

    I don't know that vanadyl sulfate is economical for most in quantities that would actually DO anything. See absorption of vanadyl sulfate through the gut wall is TERRIBLE, which is probably the fortunate reasoning behind why not many human toxicity cases ever surfaced. Some of the original researchers subsequently turned to less toxic forms that you may be familiar with in products on the market like bismaltolato-oxovanadium; but again to suggest we know how to truly use it - is at best - preliminary.

    I don't usually like vanadium supplements, but I do recommend bodybuilders invest in their natural sources: beets, black pepper, buckwheat, carrots, dill, eggs, fish, milk, mushrooms, oats, olive oil, radishes, parsley, shellfish, soybeans, sunflower oil, and whole weat.

    Summary: Vanadium and said salts - skip it!



    D_
    theres a study i posted on increases leptin sensitivity with use of it. . .

    i like vanadium personally i get very full from it. and tend to heat up quicker from working out with it.
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    "Thus, when lactate production is increased, less carbon derived from glucose is available to enter the tricarboxylic acid cycle either for oxidation or use in de novo lipogenesis. Together, these data suggest that it is not glucose uptake, per se, but its metabolism beyond pyruvate and lactate in the adipocyte that is involved in the action of glucose to stimulate leptin secretion"

    possible MOA of Vanadium... http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v8...by200066a.html

    and heres sensitivity... http://www.bioscience.org/u37153137/.../2332/2332.pdf

    in discussion section
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    theres a study i posted on increases leptin sensitivity with use of it. . .

    i like vanadium personally i get very full from it. and tend to heat up quicker from working out with it.
    I am uncertain how to explain your "heating up" quicker...BUT if you feel it works for you, then by all means, do not let me stop you...



    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    "Thus, when lactate production is increased, less carbon derived from glucose is available to enter the tricarboxylic acid cycle either for oxidation or use in de novo lipogenesis. Together, these data suggest that it is not glucose uptake, per se, but its metabolism beyond pyruvate and lactate in the adipocyte that is involved in the action of glucose to stimulate leptin secretion"

    possible MOA of Vanadium... http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v8...by200066a.html

    and heres sensitivity... http://www.bioscience.org/u37153137/.../2332/2332.pdf

    in discussion section
    I will repost a quote from my own post with highlight...

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii
    Though bodybuilders and people with diabetes have taken a form of vanadium, vanadyl sulfate, to improve the way insulin works (insulin sensitivity), there still is no proof it does this in humans outside of non-insulin dependent diabetics and that was a solitary paper from 1995.
    While the leptin discussion is certainly intriguing; leptin itself and modulation therein has been very disappointing through natural means. Another quote from the paper you post is this: "Vanadium (5 to 50 microM) inhibited leptin secretion by 33 +/- 6% (p < 0.0025) to 61 +/- 8% (p < 0.0001)." That is EXTREMELY significant looking at the p value and I am uncertain if I would classify this as good anyway.

    Bioavailability in humans (your MOA is in rats) is TERRIBLE; which I still say from a toxicity standpoint is probably a good thing if you really were to translate the data and attempt human "efficacious" dosing. My personal opinion is not to waste your money, but as I have said above...if you feel it is working for you, then by all means. Even if it amounted to placebo (and I am NOT saying it does), but even if it did; then my opinion also is that the vanadium (no matter how potentially silly I suggest it to be), has paid divedends on your investment in it. Make sense?


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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Can you elaborate more on this? i.e timing protocols
    Well, I was referencing post #4 with that statement for all intensive purposes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    I am uncertain how to explain your "heating up" quicker...BUT if you feel it works for you, then by all means, do not let me stop you...





    I will repost a quote from my own post with highlight...



    While the leptin discussion is certainly intriguing; leptin itself and modulation therein has been very disappointing through natural means. Another quote from the paper you post is this: "Vanadium (5 to 50 microM) inhibited leptin secretion by 33 +/- 6% (p < 0.0025) to 61 +/- 8% (p < 0.0001)." That is EXTREMELY significant looking at the p value and I am uncertain if I would classify this as good anyway.

    Bioavailability in humans (your MOA is in rats) is TERRIBLE; which I still say from a toxicity standpoint is probably a good thing if you really were to translate the data and attempt human "efficacious" dosing. My personal opinion is not to waste your money, but as I have said above...if you feel it is working for you, then by all means. Even if it amounted to placebo (and I am NOT saying it does), but even if it did; then my opinion also is that the vanadium (no matter how potentially silly I suggest it to be), has paid divedends on your investment in it. Make sense?


    D_
    heating up quicker i mean sweating more after a meal and faster during a workout.

    i understand human studies are the way to go, the ones done are on Non insulin dependant DM. but given the MOA on them it can carry over, maybe not in effectiveness persay but the way it works with the hormones.

    of eating carbs, increases leptin, and GDAs lower leptin your able to eat more food to increase that same leptin responce no? which is why these products are good for minimizing fat gain in a caloric surplus .

    bur im pretty sure in your bodyopus reloaded u spoke about your GDC m-f and not on sat and sunday. which mon-friday a gda will lower leptin.so i

    duno if thats an old postin and your veiws have changed of im mis interperting things
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    Glucosamine HCL works to lower the effective glycemic index of whatever carbohydrates you may have eaten
    http://www.jbc.org/content/215/2/803.full.pdf


    Alpha lipoic acid increases energy expenditure
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20015518

    Synergistic effect of curcumin and insulin on muscle cell glucose metabolism.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20561944
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    Some GDA compounds potentiate insulin release from pancreatic beta cells such as Gymnemic Acid (Gymnemma Sylvestre), for example, which does so by increasing beta cell permeability.

    http://joe.endocrinology-journals.or....full.pdf+html

    Today, we'll specifically take Gymnema sylvestre. It does so much more than you have started us on.

    I am a guy who believes in things that stand the test of time and this particular compound has been around in India and Ayurvedic medicine in the treament of diabetes for over 2,000 years.

    First, some pharmacology so we're all on the same page. The important active ingredient in it is an organic acid called gymnemic acid which is a triterpene glycoside that suppresses sweetness in humans (this compound actually suppressed the taste of sugar when leaves were chewed back in its early days). From this glycosidic fraction, six triterpene glycosides - gymnemosides a, b, c, d, e, and f (very generically) - were isolated. There are 4 triterpenoid saponins and 6 known gymnemic acids found in G. sylvestre. The principal constituents have been suggested to be gymnemic acid and gymnemasaponin.Gurmarin is a polypeptide isolated in the leaves that consists of 35 amino acid residues, including three intramolecular disulfide bonds. It has a molecular weight of 4,000 and is inhibitory to neural responses to sweet taste stimuli.

    Recent pharm studies show it acts on both the taste buds in the oral mucosa and the absorptive surface to the intestine. The structure of the taste buds that detect sugar in the mouth is similar to the structure of the tissue that absorbs sugar in the intestines. Gymnemic acid acts on both these sites. Gymnemic acid's atom arrangement is similar to that of glucose molecules. Those molecules fill the receptor locations on the taste buds for a period of 1-2 hours, thereby preventing the taste buds from being activated by any sugar molecule present in the food (important when considering salivary amylase). Similarly, the glucose-like molecules in the gymnemic acid fill the receptor locations in the absorptive external layers of the intestine, thereby preventing the intestine from absorbing sugar molecules. So, the leaves inhibit glucose uptake.

    Gymnema also increases the acitivty of enzymes responsible for glucose uptake and utilization, and inhibits peripheral utilization of glucose by somatotrophin and corticotrophin. Extracts have also been found to inhibit epinephrine-induced hyperglycemia. Gymnema has even been shown, as you suggest to regenerate insulin-producing beta-cells of the pancreas, leading to an enhancement in the production of endogenous insulin, further controlling blood sugar.

    Gymnema further inhibits adrenocortical activity and prevents the normal hyperglycemic response of the anterior pituitary gland, which acts in turn by inhibiting peripheral glucose metabolism enduced by somatropin and corticotropin hormones. Gymnema even further yet still inhibits the blood's capacity to take up oxygen, resulting in higher physical and mental performance and increased energy levels. Also - it lowers cholesterol.


    Why wouldn't you include it (provided manufacturers get it right)? Still, in TEA FORM, it provides the BEST RESULTS. It has been determined that a dose of 200mg is optimal in order to utilize its effectiveness in the area of weight management.

    Now, extension to diabetic stuff...the typical therapeutic dose (for treatment of hyperglycemia), standardized to contain 24% gymnemic acid, is 400-600mg per day (I speculate this is due to body comp differences and volume of distribution but this has been an answer left unidentified by the literature). In adult-onset diabetics, ongoing use for periods as long as 18-24 months (no supplement has that kind of data) has proven successful.

    Keep in mind, to avoid overt hypoglycemia, if you want a standardized product...I would only say to use about 200-400mg (as opposed to 400-600mg) and that too depends on weight. It's effects are slow; so be careful not to dismiss it too quickly. Take it with meals and it can probably be taken for months to years without significant sides (maybe modest GI upset up front if taken on an empty stomach, but usually diminishes over time and/or with addition of food).

    So, as opposed to vanadium and related compounds, I give this one an enthusiastic thumb's up - but maybe not in a way that supplement companies (who have this listed ingredient) offer it.


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    i rescently bought slin sane, what dosing protocol should i use and what would be the max dosage per day?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Obviously since 2005; sodium salts have trumped potassium salts for ALA superiority at least in potency. However, the fact remains - this is single-handedly the best compound to use regardless of all the schnazzy herbal this and that touted by supplement manufacturers trying to make "novel" preps.

    Another key is to NOT use them on "carb-ups" of a CKD. In other words, if you are following a 5-keto/2-carb-up protocol; your week would look like this:

    M-F: GDC
    S + S: N/A; in fact, you are looking for the glycemic response to run "amok" these days.

    But, lets talk about some of the other agents you suggest Max...


    D_
    What would you recommend for someone on 120gms of carbs a day outside of sunday where he is at 60gms of carbs and then saturdays is his "free meal" in regards to using the GDA?

    Still recommend using the GDA M-F and then not on saturday?

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Can you elaborate more on this? i.e timing protocols
    This as well, what are the optimal times for these?
    E-Pharm Rep... PM me with any questions or concerns
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    this is the working link: http://joe.endocrinology-journals.or....full.pdf+html

    Thanks Dana
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    MOAR!!!!

    lol

    these are some of my favorite types of supplements...

    dying to learn more.
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    can we actually start another topic RE carbs/sugars and their different forms? whats good, bad and most sought after for a body builder???

    Sorry just asking here cause it IS a GDA thread
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    Subbed to this one, don't know how I missed it..

    Doc, you said not to use GDAs when in keto/low carb diet on refeed days, that goes against
    pretty much all the GDAs label directions, could you please elaborate this?
    I take in 30gr of carbs a day, so it would be considered keto, and started to do refeeds not long ago,
    since I'm carb sensitive (i eat carbs and I feel like *hell*) i was just boosting calories once a week
    with protein and healthy fats, no carbs, recently a specific GDA seems to allow me to eat carbs without
    any sides but you say not to use them to carb up when in this kinda diet, would be cool if you could go into
    details about it. BF 5% or even less atm, so my metabolism is getting slow and I've noticed refeed
    is indeed beneficial if done right
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRigg View Post
    i rescently bought slin sane, what dosing protocol should i use and what would be the max dosage per day?
    Future reference: when referencing a product, please list ingredients as it helps me immensely in trying to discuss it without having to look every one of them up. This one, I did view and it's an interesting design. I presume the norvaline was added for a potential pump; however, I am a fan of a much higher dose of norvaline should it be employed; especially in isolation.

    Now, you already learned I am a big fan of Gymnema although I am uncertain exactly how much Gymnema we are talking about due to it's grouping with Lagerstroemia speciosa, but as stated, we already center on use at about 400-600mg/day; does that equate to 1 dose or 2 is unbeknownst to me - perhaps you can contact Genomyx and get their equivalency dosing as Matt is usually an easy guy to deal with and get the answers you seek. Until then, I would default to label recommendations although this kind of suggests use of a lot of carbs - which is dependent upon goals as to whether this recommendation fits you directly.

    In diabetic glucosuric (sugar in the urine detectable by dipstick) patients, we use upward of 4-6 grams daily of Gymnema...but that is not a typical recommendation...I am just saying that to offer that it is typically well-tolerated. It may give you a little bit of upset stomach when taken on an empty stomach, but I think carb ingestion would be most beneficial with this one as it is highly potent and probably underestimated because it actually has a VERY slow action (in other words, it takes days to weeks to even months to sometimes see results). That may argue against acute use without a protracted course, but that's the harsh reality of this one.

    So, in short...answers to your questions are - the dose you should employ depends on you and your goals of use with this product. It is generally safe even in higher doses (grams at a time); BUT may cause a little upset stomach, so with a gradual onset of action...I'd probably suggest ramping up the dose over a period of days to weeks to assess tolerance....probably somewhere between 600mg and 1000mg would be the absolute max dose I would ever commit to, but that will be very unique to the individual using it and I unfortunately know very little about you.


    Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    What would you recommend for someone on 120gms of carbs a day outside of sunday where he is at 60gms of carbs and then saturdays is his "free meal" in regards to using the GDA?

    Still recommend using the GDA M-F and then not on saturday?
    The "weekend holiday" schedule is part of a glycogen modulation protocol which works well with carb-ups in a carb-depleted state. You describe what seems like the opposite ... your highest carbs through the week followed by lower carbs on Sunday. I am uncertain I understand why you are doing it this way, but to just make certain you manage carbohydrate intake in general rather than a true body composition trickery move like say a CKD.

    Your ingestion would probably best be suited with your highest carb meal of the day, although I am uncertain about the structure within the day of your meals and when you take in the carbs you do. If you take them in post-workout; like a TKD; then I do NOT recommend use of this style agent. Its unnecessary and could actually attenuate your insulin (anabolic) response.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    can we actually start another topic RE carbs/sugars and their different forms? whats good, bad and most sought after for a body builder???

    Sorry just asking here cause it IS a GDA thread
    Ummm, sure. There's a lot of asking about whether to start new threads; guys...if it seems like a new topic; I would start a new thread just for ease of the reader who may go to the topic of choice with ease as opposed to wading through an entire GDA thread to see discussion on specialty carbs or so-called glyconutrients.


    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    Subbed to this one, don't know how I missed it..

    Doc, you said not to use GDAs when in keto/low carb diet on refeed days, that goes against
    pretty much all the GDAs label directions, could you please elaborate this?
    I take in 30gr of carbs a day, so it would be considered keto, and started to do refeeds not long ago,
    since I'm carb sensitive (i eat carbs and I feel like *hell*) i was just boosting calories once a week
    with protein and healthy fats, no carbs, recently a specific GDA seems to allow me to eat carbs without
    any sides but you say not to use them to carb up when in this kinda diet, would be cool if you could go into
    details about it. BF 5% or even less atm, so my metabolism is getting slow and I've noticed refeed
    is indeed beneficial if done right
    Given your low body fat % and suggested heightened response to glucose; a 48-hour glycogen supercompensation scheme is probably best for you to allow you to truly take advantage of the extra glycogen storage capacity and subsequent heavier tension lifts in the early week. My prototypical setup for such a thing would look as follows...

    Mon: Low Carb (Tot. calories BMR)
    Tues: Low Carb (Tot. calories BMR +/- 250-500 dependent upon body comp goals)
    Wed: Low Carb (Tot. calories BMR +/- 250-500 dependent upon body comp goals)
    Thurs: Low Carb (Tot. calories BMR +/- 250-500 dependent upon body comp goals)
    Fri: Low Carb (possibly incorporating carb-up if doing depletion workout on this day; preferably afternoon to evening)
    Sat: High Carb (Tot Calories consumed Thurs and Friday TIMES TWO!!!)
    Sun: High Carb (Reacclimate BMR for next cycle)

    You want to take advantage of the body's natural insulin response as opposed to artificially lower blood sugars. That's not the intention of adopting a diet such as this. You would use a GDA to achieve hastened "ketosis" or lowered "glycemic variation" BUT not on a "supercompensation."

    If this does not make sense, I can expand upon it below. I think based on how complex it looks (but looks can be deceiving), it's the reason I actually have a job year in and year out. People will follow a diet if it's all laid out for them (i.e. - tell me what to do and I'll do it, but the footwork to get there can be painful if you want to keep advancing). Keep in mind not to lose sight of why you would use such a diet in the first place. I think that this is a concept sometimes lost sight of. So I ask...what is your goal with this style diet???


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    Thanks for confirming my protocols .

    Geronova-licensed NP Na-R-Ala is king.

    And what about vanadyl sulfate toxicity?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Thanks for confirming my protocols .

    Geronova-licensed NP Na-R-Ala is king.

    And what about vanadyl sulfate toxicity?
    Ha! Well, I too would consider Na-R-ALA the crowned champion in this category. If NP has a powder of this; then by all means, I would gobble it up.

    Now, on to your more challenging comment...Vanadyl sulfate toxicity...

    Vanadate is the vanadium source not suggested due to toxicity, NOT vanadyl sulfate. Vanadyl sulfate becomes tricky because of dosing parameters necessary to achieve anything ergogenic.

    Based on available research and personal experience with clients/patients, et al..., vanadyl sulfate appears to be a useful as an intervention for Type II diabetics and those harboring a great deal of insulin resistance. In athletes, administration of vanadium for up to 12 weeks at a dose of 225 mcg per pound of bodyweight (33.75 grams per day for a 150-lb person) did NOT result in any toxicity to achieve this efficacious dose; but like I said above...this becomes VERY non-economical to achieve this. More research is needed on vanadium to establish an accurate dose/response for the treatment of insulin resistance. Could I suggest this harbor necessity in the normal populace; not without doing you a disservice - because the fact of the matter is; I just haven't seen it in real life nor has the research supported it.

    Now, with even 48 hours on inactivity; EVERYONE harbors some degree of insulin resistance; but what does that mean in the acute setting - probably not much but thinner pocketbooks. Less than 5% of supplemental vanadium (inorganic salts like Vanadyl sulfate) is absorbed. Organic forms like BGOV are recognized as being more absorbable, in the range of 50% but understand when you do this; you actually suffer from labeling trickery as LESS ELEMENTAL vanadium is available. It's too expensive for manufacturers and possibly too risky...it's just unknown so why would they risk it. It's probably too expensive for consumers if we are to translate what was needed to achieve any higher level of significant results ergogenically-speaking.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post

    Given your low body fat % and suggested heightened response to glucose; a 48-hour glycogen supercompensation scheme is probably best for you to allow you to truly take advantage of the extra glycogen storage capacity and subsequent heavier tension lifts in the early week. My prototypical setup for such a thing would look as follows...

    Mon: Low Carb (Tot. calories BMR)
    Tues: Low Carb (Tot. calories BMR +/- 250-500 dependent upon body comp goals)
    Wed: Low Carb (Tot. calories BMR +/- 250-500 dependent upon body comp goals)
    Thurs: Low Carb (Tot. calories BMR +/- 250-500 dependent upon body comp goals)
    Fri: Low Carb (possibly incorporating carb-up if doing depletion workout on this day; preferably afternoon to evening)
    Sat: High Carb (Tot Calories consumed Thurs and Friday TIMES TWO!!!)
    Sun: High Carb (Reacclimate BMR for next cycle)

    You want to take advantage of the body's natural insulin response as opposed to artificially lower blood sugars. That's not the intention of adopting a diet such as this. You would use a GDA to achieve hastened "ketosis" or lowered "glycemic variation" BUT not on a "supercompensation."

    If this does not make sense, I can expand upon it below. I think based on how complex it looks (but looks can be deceiving), it's the reason I actually have a job year in and year out. People will follow a diet if it's all laid out for them (i.e. - tell me what to do and I'll do it, but the footwork to get there can be painful if you want to keep advancing). Keep in mind not to lose sight of why you would use such a diet in the first place. I think that this is a concept sometimes lost sight of. So I ask...what is your goal with this style diet???


    D_

    First I cannot even begin to say how great is to have you here replying these questions,
    honestly, thank you.

    My goal would be considered odd by most bb I guess, and it comes from a mild form paranoia and fat-phobia,
    I like to stay lean all year round, actually I'm totally unable to let my BF going over 5/6% (i freak out, can't help it)
    and also my training is beyond hardcore, is to total body and mind failure for 5 out of 6 training days a week.
    So gains are slow but somewhat my body is accustomed to such stress and I still manage to get them
    (actually gained almost 5lbs the last 3 weeks), there are sides tho',
    sometimes I pass out after a meal, low sex drive, some other time I really
    cannot function after the wo because how intense that was etc.. I'm sure you got the picture.
    I have put my body into a fight-or-fight status for a long time.

    So my goal would be to, well, be able to continue to do what I'm doing without.. dying?
    Losing fat becomes harder as you get leaner, and I can't lower calories even more, I'm already in deficit
    6 days a week pretty much, so I have to use tricks even to just keep my actual BF and still increasing
    strength and gain something.
    Refeed works for strength and gains, GDAs seems to work very well for keeping
    my BF this way and still get pumps and vascularity with my meals.

    But I've never tried doing a refeed WITHOUT a GDA, and I'm curious now..
    I think I got the idea of why I shouldn't use them on refeed/carb-up, I'm looking for a high natural
    response (which in my constantly depleted state will happen big time when refeeding, right?) while GDA will
    somewhat reduce that.
    Seems similar to when you say don't use GDAs with your post-wo carbs because it might attenuate
    the insulin (anabolic) response, am i completely off road?
    Funny because it makes totally sense even for an ignorant like me, and yet I was absolutely
    sure that if there was a moment in which a GDA was suppose to be used would've been the refeed
    because they are suppose to "shuttle nutrients into muscles" avoiding to store fat, in a way to mimic
    what happens post-wo.. I'm sure I'm missing something.

    I wo 6 days a week, 3 heavy, 1 light(ish), 2 heavy, 1 rest.
    I do my refeed on the first or second of the first three (would be
    Sunday or Monday), so i do the refeed between two of my heaviest wo days,
    and yes I do it in the evening because I'm doing also IF/warrior diet, so I fast for 18h
    and eat in a 6h window, starting around 7pm (wo is in the morning, fasted as well, just BCAA, vit D3, vit C, prewo, fish oil)

    Damn I'd so love to be able to follow the schedule you posted, but I know I won't be able to,
    there's no way I'd eat all those calories, I'm not even close to that..
    On my refeed day I boost cals to +500 from the rest of the week, sometimes a tad more (lately) and that's it :/
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    I never use GDAs when I take in carbs do to the use of intermittent fasting diet and even on carb up days, I don't bother. I am willing to see what two months of something like Slin Sane will do for me when taken with/before carb meals. Right now I keep carbs low on non-training days and about 150-200 on training days. It is leaning me out and I still have enough energy to do solid workouts though I do look forward to a Saturday carb up on Friday that is for sure. Great information in here, thanks for all the insights guys. I had a feeling it was more using the right compound(s) than them actually working. It seems they do work and K-ALA I knew was a great choice as is NA-R-ALA but getting it was always an issue.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    i like my GDA on refeeds and on non refeeds.

    On refeeds i can eat even more then usual to ellicit that same leptin responce which the overfeeding increases t3 levels.

    Never had a problem
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    i like my GDA on refeeds and on non refeeds.

    On refeeds i can eat even more then usual to ellicit that same leptin responce which the overfeeding increases t3 levels.

    Never had a problem
    That's where I get confused.. I've never had problems either and actually noticed leaning out
    since I'm using GDAs, especially Recompadrol which acts sort of like a fat burner on me (also the one that
    allows me to eat carbs without feeling bad), that's where I miss the link I guess, I never thought GDAs could lower
    the natural body response to the carb-up/refeed, even if it's done like I do it, which is in between the two heaviest wo days
    I couldn't imagine such thing.

    GDAs are indeed way more complex to understand than it seems, at least for me
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Ha! Well, I too would consider Na-R-ALA the crowned champion in this category. If NP has a powder of this; then by all means, I would gobble it up.

    Now, on to your more challenging comment...Vanadyl sulfate toxicity...

    Vanadate is the vanadium source not suggested due to toxicity, NOT vanadyl sulfate. Vanadyl sulfate becomes tricky because of dosing parameters necessary to achieve anything ergogenic.

    Based on available research and personal experience with clients/patients, et al..., vanadyl sulfate appears to be a useful as an intervention for Type II diabetics and those harboring a great deal of insulin resistance. In athletes, administration of vanadium for up to 12 weeks at a dose of 225 mcg per pound of bodyweight (33.75 grams per day for a 150-lb person) did NOT result in any toxicity to achieve this efficacious dose; but like I said above...this becomes VERY non-economical to achieve this. More research is needed on vanadium to establish an accurate dose/response for the treatment of insulin resistance. Could I suggest this harbor necessity in the normal populace; not without doing you a disservice - because the fact of the matter is; I just haven't seen it in real life nor has the research supported it.

    Now, with even 48 hours on inactivity; EVERYONE harbors some degree of insulin resistance; but what does that mean in the acute setting - probably not much but thinner pocketbooks. Less than 5% of supplemental vanadium (inorganic salts like Vanadyl sulfate) is absorbed. Organic forms like BGOV are recognized as being more absorbable, in the range of 50% but understand when you do this; you actually suffer from labeling trickery as LESS ELEMENTAL vanadium is available. It's too expensive for manufacturers and possibly too risky...it's just unknown so why would they risk it. It's probably too expensive for consumers if we are to translate what was needed to achieve any higher level of significant results ergogenically-speaking.


    D_
    Thanks a ton for the post! Will keep vanadium out of my protocol then. I've been doing Agmatine and Na-R-Ala at 1g and 600mg a day respectively...simplest and most effective combo I've tried. I'm just glad a certain someone laid down the blueprint for my current regimen .
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    First I cannot even begin to say how great is to have you here replying these questions,
    honestly, thank you.
    Thanks, I'm blushing. I am always fearful that I just can't get to enough of them quick enough; there are obviously so many more of you than me and I answer in between patients, research, et al... so it can sometimes prove daunting.


    My goal would be considered odd by most bb I guess, and it comes from a mild form paranoia and fat-phobia, I like to stay lean all year round, actually I'm totally unable to let my BF going over 5/6% (i freak out, can't help it) and also my training is beyond hardcore, is to total body and mind failure for 5 out of 6 training days a week. So gains are slow but somewhat my body is accustomed to such stress and I still manage to get them (actually gained almost 5lbs the last 3 weeks), there are sides tho', sometimes I pass out after a meal, low sex drive, some other time I really cannot function after the wo because how intense that was etc.. I'm sure you got the picture. I have put my body into a fight-or-fight status for a long time.
    If you are solely looking to lower -or- keep low body comp, then restricting glycemic variation (ie. - shifts in highs and lows); then taking a GDA straight through a carb-up is fine; however...this will sacrifice the purpose of a supercompensation period allowing you to progress with tension-series lifts and does not agree with the original rationale for the diet. You accomplish the same thing by making sure carbs are low (which it sounds you do); so I am not sure the GDA is giving you the results you are giving it credit for.


    So my goal would be to, well, be able to continue to do what I'm doing without.. dying? Losing fat becomes harder as you get leaner, and I can't lower calories even more, I'm already in deficit 6 days a week pretty much, so I have to use tricks even to just keep my actual BF and still increasing strength and gain something. Refeed works for strength and gains, GDAs seems to work very well for keeping
    my BF this way and still get pumps and vascularity with my meals.

    But I've never tried doing a refeed WITHOUT a GDA, and I'm curious now..I think I got the idea of why I shouldn't use them on refeed/carb-up, I'm looking for a high naturalresponse (which in my constantly depleted state will happen big time when refeeding, right?) while GDA will somewhat reduce that. Seems similar to when you say don't use GDAs with your post-wo carbs because it might attenuate the insulin (anabolic) response, am i completely off road? Funny because it makes totally sense even for an ignorant like me, and yet I was absolutely sure that if there was a moment in which a GDA was suppose to be used would've been the refeed
    because they are suppose to "shuttle nutrients into muscles" avoiding to store fat, in a way to mimic what happens post-wo.. I'm sure I'm missing something.



    You are correct for all intents and purposes (perhaps a little bit simplified) on the "why" the GDA is best left off the "re-feeds." I will guarantee you (100%) that you will NOT store fat in a "true" refeed and will not only shuttle nutrients, but the purpose of a carb-up (refeed, supercompensation) was glycogen manipulation. While you normally store about 2.5 grams of glycogen per each 100 grams of muscle; you actually can trick the system into storing about double that...so 5 grams per each 100 grams of muscle. This WILL translate to expedited results and make you look jacked (not remotely flat) the first 2-3 days of the week after a refeed. It will also provide you additional fuel (in the form of glycogen) to provide for truly "intense" resistance (tension) workouts.

    Now...you heighten insulin sensitivity during the periods of low-carb/no-carb which will actually provide a further anabolic response when incorporating carbs.

    Which brings me to your next statement...

    I wo 6 days a week, 3 heavy, 1 light(ish), 2 heavy, 1 rest. I do my refeed on the first or second of the first three (would be
    Sunday or Monday), so i do the refeed between two of my heaviest wo days, and yes I do it in the evening because I'm doing also IF/warrior diet, so I fast for 18h and eat in a 6h window, starting around 7pm (wo is in the morning, fasted as well, just BCAA, vit D3, vit C, prewo, fish oil)
    We actually have talked about IF somewhere else in this subforum (although I don't recall where) and actually brought up it's shortcomings...some are actually thyroidal in nature (which probably means over time and when you age as hormones decline; you will be allowed to eat fewer and fewer calories to achive the physique you are coveting).


    Damn I'd so love to be able to follow the schedule you posted, but I know I won't be able to, there's no way I'd eat all those calories, I'm not even close to that..On my refeed day I boost cals to +500 from the rest of the week, sometimes a tad more (lately) and that's it :/
    I think you'd be surprised how well it works if done correctly.

    Most people screw up having protein too high on a low-carb diet and then dismiss it as the diet's fault thereafter. That's not really it; it's how certain authors have translated the why's people would incorporate such diets and how to do them successfully. Also trying to make their "diet" unique; so they move carbs up and down and all around. While again, I will NOT dismiss this as being an effective way to avoid high levels of glycemic variation...it is NOT the most effective for a bodybuilder to follow.


    Quote Originally Posted by oufinny View Post
    I never use GDAs when I take in carbs do to the use of intermittent fasting diet and even on carb up days, I don't bother. I am willing to see what two months of something like Slin Sane will do for me when taken with/before carb meals. Right now I keep carbs low on non-training days and about 150-200 on training days. It is leaning me out and I still have enough energy to do solid workouts though I do look forward to a Saturday carb up on Friday that is for sure. Great information in here, thanks for all the insights guys. I had a feeling it was more using the right compound(s) than them actually working. It seems they do work and K-ALA I knew was a great choice as is NA-R-ALA but getting it was always an issue.
    See - you actually could probably have higher success if you truly DEPLETE before you "carbed up." The best way to describe the diet I have highlighted you use in bold is a CTKD (or cyclic targeted ketogenic diet); unfortunately...ketosis is never achieved and any results is...YOU GUESSED IT, like those before you...limiting levels of glycemic variation.


    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    i like my GDA on refeeds and on non refeeds. On refeeds i can eat even more then usual to ellicit that same leptin responce which the overfeeding increases t3 levels. Never had a problem
    You won't be able to see a "problem" per se unless you do them both and in the way they are intended. As far as the GDA; this contributes NONE to the thyroid infrastructure. As far as leptin response; possibly; but again this is the same limitation of glycemic variation as previously described which is leading to your "success" not the GDA itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    That's where I get confused.. I've never had problems either and actually noticed leaning out
    since I'm using GDAs, especially Recompadrol which acts sort of like a fat burner on me (also the one that
    allows me to eat carbs without feeling bad), that's where I miss the link I guess, I never thought GDAs could lower
    the natural body response to the carb-up/refeed, even if it's done like I do it, which is in between the two heaviest wo days
    I couldn't imagine such thing. GDAs are indeed way more complex to understand than it seems, at least for me

    Again, you have to take advantage of a carb-up the way it was meant. I offer you the analogy of a wet towel. The water is glycogen ... dripping wet. When you wring the towel out; that is the equivalent of "carbing-down" OR "depleting." To take advantage of glycogen manipulation and insulin sensitivity while not losing site of thyroidal peripheral conversion and subsequent axis defects, the "carb-up" or "supercompensation" only really will see tremendous impact in that way.

    If not done in this way...then you are likely just seeing the results of limiting glycogen variation....which ... PLEASE DO NOT GET ME WRONG...is NOT a bad thing; but you may as well adopt a meditteranean diet or something from a nutrient density standpoint and you'll achieve the same thing in a more nutritious fashion.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Thanks a ton for the post! Will keep vanadium out of my protocol then. I've been doing Agmatine and Na-R-Ala at 1g and 600mg a day respectively...simplest and most effective combo I've tried. I'm just glad a certain someone laid down the blueprint for my current regimen .
    Yeah; I think I may go down in history infamous for Blueprint; but really ... I might best be described as the guy who ended agmatine's run on a 20-year hiatus of being incorporated into sports supplements because people didn't know how to market the damn thing. I am unsure if the latter is more dubious or enlightening...alas I digress.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Thanks, I'm blushing. [...] I digress.


    D_
    I read the whole reply and damn I gotta leave, but I just wanted to say I'd hug you right now
    That was *terrific* info, clear, simply explained and incredibly interesting, you just clarified so many
    doubts I had.
    Will write more later on, thanks a lot once more doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post








    Most people screw up having protein too high on a low-carb diet and then dismiss it as the diet's fault thereafter. That's not really it; it's how certain authors have translated the why's people would incorporate such diets and how to do them successfully. Also trying to make their "diet" unique; so they move carbs up and down and all around. While again, I will NOT dismiss this as being an effective way to avoid high levels of glycemic variation...it is NOT the most effective for a bodybuilder to follow.







    You won't be able to see a "problem" per se unless you do them both and in the way they are intended. As far as the GDA; this contributes NONE to the thyroid infrastructure. As far as leptin response; possibly; but again this is the same limitation of glycemic variation as previously described which is leading to your "success" not the GDA itself.





    Again, you have to take advantage of a carb-up the way it was meant. I offer you the analogy of a wet towel. The water is glycogen ... dripping wet. When you wring the towel out; that is the equivalent of "carbing-down" OR "depleting." To take advantage of glycogen manipulation and insulin sensitivity while not losing site of thyroidal peripheral conversion and subsequent axis defects, the "carb-up" or "supercompensation" only really will see tremendous impact in that way.

    If not done in this way...then you are likely just seeing the results of limiting glycogen variation....which ... PLEASE DO NOT GET ME WRONG...is NOT a bad thing; but you may as well adopt a meditteranean diet or something from a nutrient density standpoint and you'll achieve the same thing in a more nutritious fashion.





    D_
    i want to touch on a few things you said.

    what do you feel is too high protein, i mean as it is, i eat 47% protein 47% fat 6% carb, give or take percent or 2 in my diet, and felt it worked much better for dieting opposed to keto which is 60% fat, 30% protein <10% carb.... while my diet still keeps me in ketosis, as certain supplements blunt gluconeogenesis therefor i assume keeping amino acid pool more "full" thus better recomposition albeit takes longer to diet it down.

    But interms of glycemic variation. a GDA wont alter it too much it only blocks X amount of carbs via alpha glucosidase inhibition (carb blocking) . GDAs work mechanisms that AID the fat loss process as well as help deplete glycogen (banaba leaf) ad well as a few other ingredients. so with that said it can aid on the point of low-no carb days. On refeeds, if you do it truely the right way, GDAs will effect it somewhat in terms of fat put on. but i mean 800 carbs, GDAs wont blunt the insulin responce too bad considering the sheer volume of food. But some people dont refeed, the have a **** day, which in esence can still increase the t3 bc its overfeeding, bt overfeeding with LCFA cause more fat gain hence the saftey net of these GDAs. Refeeds simply taking the GDA and adding more carbs would suffice no?

    by glycemic variation im assuming the insulin responses you get? because you still get them on a GDA but need more food to illicit the same responce since the GDA takes more pressure off the beta cells right.

    plus if these GDAs are activating GLUT 4 wouldnt they therefore aid supercompensation A LA dan duchain. Increases cell sensitivity even more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Thanks, I'm blushing. I am always fearful that I just can't get to enough of them quick enough; there are obviously so many more of you than me and I answer in between patients, research, et al... so it can sometimes prove daunting.
    I can see that, appreciation for the time spent here just increased

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    If you are solely looking to lower -or- keep low body comp, then restricting glycemic variation (ie. - shifts in highs and lows); then taking a GDA straight through a carb-up is fine; however...this will sacrifice the purpose of a supercompensation period allowing you to progress with tension-series lifts and does not agree with the original rationale for the diet. You accomplish the same thing by making sure carbs are low (which it sounds you do); so I am not sure the GDA is giving you the results you are giving it credit for.
    Clear, makes sense and yes I do keep my carbs very low, 30gr on wo days and even less on days off.

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    [/B]You are correct for all intents and purposes (perhaps a little bit simplified) on the "why" the GDA is best left off the "re-feeds." I will guarantee you (100%) that you will NOT store fat in a "true" refeed and will not only shuttle nutrients, but the purpose of a carb-up (refeed, supercompensation) was glycogen manipulation. While you normally store about 2.5 grams of glycogen per each 100 grams of muscle; you actually can trick the system into storing about double that...so 5 grams per each 100 grams of muscle. This WILL translate to expedited results and make you look jacked (not remotely flat) the first 2-3 days of the week after a refeed. It will also provide you additional fuel (in the form of glycogen) to provide for truly "intense" resistance (tension) workouts.

    Now...you heighten insulin sensitivity during the periods of low-carb/no-carb which will actually provide a further anabolic response when incorporating carbs.

    Which brings me to your next statement...
    Absolutely simplified yes
    And when I mean refeed I mean *100% clean* refeed, no cheat meals, ever.
    My refeed is really nothing but my regular meals (100% clean as well) to which I add oats and for a total amount of 100gr of carbs
    and usually I let myself eat some more whey mixed with greek yogurt and some oats&protein, fat free home made cookies
    as well, cutting the (lil already) paying attention to fats (lil to begin with)
    Again, explained very clearly, and definitely your statement about not storing fat just kicked my fat-phobia in the ass

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    We actually have talked about IF somewhere else in this subforum (although I don't recall where) and actually brought up it's shortcomings...some are actually thyroidal in nature (which probably means over time and when you age as hormones decline; you will be allowed to eat fewer and fewer calories to achive the physique you are coveting).

    I think you'd be surprised how well it works if done correctly.

    Most people screw up having protein too high on a low-carb diet and then dismiss it as the diet's fault thereafter. That's not really it; it's how certain authors have translated the why's people would incorporate such diets and how to do them successfully. Also trying to make their "diet" unique; so they move carbs up and down and all around. While again, I will NOT dismiss this as being an effective way to avoid high levels of glycemic variation...it is NOT the most effective for a bodybuilder to follow.
    Understood, I actually started to do IF due to my schedule, then I saw very good results and kept going.
    But to be honest I attribute the good results to the fact that eating all my meals starting late evening
    it helps me stick to the diet much better, I have no problem not eating during the day because I'm always busy
    while at night i get snacky and I tend to be hungry, this way I have all my meals and the fact that I get full
    with a 400cals meal makes dieting easier.
    I also do not change (aside from the refeed) my diet, I stick to my plan, never change carbs, I can add a lil bit
    of natural PB when I really feel I'm passing out, or if a given day wo has been extremely heavy and long (my session
    can go up to +3 hours, never under 2 hours..)


    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    See - you actually could probably have higher success if you truly DEPLETE before you "carbed up." The best way to describe the diet I have highlighted you use in bold is a CTKD (or cyclic targeted ketogenic diet); unfortunately...ketosis is never achieved and any results is...YOU GUESSED IT, like those before you...limiting levels of glycemic variation.
    This is the only part that I'm not sure I get.
    How I'm not truly deplete? Because the use of GDA on the days before the refeed?
    Or due to the 30gr of carbs? I'm in serious calorie deficit - especially taking into account the intensity and the
    length of my wo sessions - the rest of the week..
    The plan/diet you described would get me depleted completely (as opposed to what I'm doing now)?
    As I said, this is the only part I'm not sure I get :/

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Again, you have to take advantage of a carb-up the way it was meant. I offer you the analogy of a wet towel. The water is glycogen ... dripping wet. When you wring the towel out; that is the equivalent of "carbing-down" OR "depleting." To take advantage of glycogen manipulation and insulin sensitivity while not losing site of thyroidal peripheral conversion and subsequent axis defects, the "carb-up" or "supercompensation" only really will see tremendous impact in that way.

    If not done in this way...then you are likely just seeing the results of limiting glycogen variation....which ... PLEASE DO NOT GET ME WRONG...is NOT a bad thing; but you may as well adopt a meditteranean diet or something from a nutrient density standpoint and you'll achieve the same thing in a more nutritious fashion.

    Yeah; I think I may go down in history infamous for Blueprint; but really ... I might best be described as the guy who ended agmatine's run on a 20-year hiatus of being incorporated into sports supplements because people didn't know how to market the damn thing. I am unsure if the latter is more dubious or enlightening...alas I digress.

    D_
    Absolutely clear, and actually like I mentioned before, this just gave my fat-phobic a$$ a well deserved kick
    I'd feel stupid not to take advantage of your advice, and next refeed I will most definitely try the carb-up (I mean mixed-macros meals, but i'll make sure the carb intake for the day is enough as you described) without the GDAs.
    I'll see how that goes and later on, I will try the detailed plan you listed in the previous post,
    this is because I've been in such strict diet/cal deficit for so long that I want to give my body a bit of time to get used.
    So, thanks a lot

    Altho' I can tell you something, i mentioned I gained almost 5lbs in the last 3 weeks, 100% lean gains,
    and that because I started to boost calories just a bit, because my wo got way harder, I kept hitting PR and going up with weight for 2 weeks straight and I actually *felt* like I needed a bit more food.
    BF didn't changed, if anything it went down a bit and I'm more vascular.



    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    But some people dont refeed, the have a **** day, which in esence can still increase the t3 bc its overfeeding, bt overfeeding with LCFA cause more fat gain hence the saftey net of these GDAs. Refeeds simply taking the GDA and adding more carbs would suffice no?

    by glycemic variation im assuming the insulin responses you get? because you still get them on a GDA but need more food to illicit the same responce since the GDA takes more pressure off the beta cells right.

    plus if these GDAs are activating GLUT 4 wouldnt they therefore aid supercompensation A LA dan duchain. Increases cell sensitivity even more.
    See this - for the way I understood the whole concept here - would make in my casethe GDA effect slightly negative,
    to regurgitate what the doc said, because I don't do cheat meals, and I even have hard time eating the amount of food/carbs that I'm suppose to on refeed, so I don't over-overfeed
    so - even if a lil bit - the GDA blunting the refeed purpose/effect of the refeed is going against the goal
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    if your not overfeeding your not eliciting the t3 responce, you need to essentially double and in some cases triple normal caloric intake from the deficit to refeed.

    your case you wont get the t3 manipulation, carbs are too low, cals are still too low,

    What he means by truely not depleting is...

    your still eating carbs. dont have direct carb sources oats etc.

    on refeed day, do a small carb meal pre workout to knock u out of ketosis, then do a high rep full body depletion work (reason for carbs pre workout is to let bodys fuel source for workout change from triglycerides/ketones/fats to carbs). Full body depletion this way you deplete the rest of carbohydrate stores (workout will last 90-120 min) then you refeed! first 4 hours high glycemic next 8-12 low glycemic.

    body weight x 2-5g is the carb number to shoot for. and protein just 1.2g per KG* (minimum to maintain muscle as shown on keto diets.) I usually do protein from a whey source or pure eggwhite source or mix of both due to extreme bioavailability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    if your not overfeeding your not eliciting the t3 responce, you need to essentially double and in some cases triple normal caloric intake from the deficit to refeed.

    your case you wont get the t3 manipulation, carbs are too low, cals are still too low,

    What he means by truely not depleting is...

    your still eating carbs. dont have direct carb sources oats etc.

    on refeed day, do a small carb meal pre workout to knock u out of ketosis, then do a high rep full body depletion work (reason for carbs pre workout is to let bodys fuel source for workout change from triglycerides/ketones/fats to carbs). Full body depletion this way you deplete the rest of carbohydrate stores (workout will last 90-120 min) then you refeed! first 4 hours high glycemic next 8-12 low glycemic.

    body weight x 2-5g is the carb number to shoot for. and protein just 1.2g per KG* (minimum to maintain muscle as shown on keto diets.) I usually do protein from a whey source or pure eggwhite source or mix of both due to extreme bioavailability.
    Oh ok all clear, almost

    only this:
    What he means by truely not depleting is...
    your still eating carbs. dont have direct carb sources oats etc.

    The day before the refeed only? Or the rest of the week?

    Assuming is only the day before, if the day before refeed I take 30gr of carbs
    (in form of two whole wheat bread slices) and no other
    direct carb source, that's enough not to be depleted?


    Yeah I figure about the cals/carbs being too low still on my refeed, I just can't make it
    I'll get there slowly, as it right now I can force-feed myself a lil bit, like I already do on my refeed
    but if I force-feed myself to that point, to that amount of cals i'd throw up no doubt, I need to get there gradually :/
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    I also think that perhaps by using certain GDAs you actually force gluconeogenesis, sometimes you might actually fill some glycogen stores. Im not sure... might be IMPOSSIBLE, but I can see this being a problem with ingesting various herbs to illicit a response.

    Good read, been here from the beginning but didnt want to pollute the thread.

    Hopefully this doesn't.

    One quick question for those that might know~

    How LONG can one be glycogen depleted before the response of glycogen supercompensation starts to diminish? And how long does it take to get into that supercompensation phase? the ultimate diet 2.0 which has you doing 1.5g*lbm(lbs) per day at around bwx8 for cals for 4 days. Doing a high volume "pump" type workout for 2 days. Then doing a higher weight "hypertrophy" style workout, then refeeding.

    Is this long enough? Would it be beneficial for us to take this further? For example, do the first 2 days maybe more spread out, then refeed after a longer period?

    Another I just thought of is~ About how long, theoretically, does it take before the body starts trying to refill glycogen via cortisol? And how long before this response overshadows the benefit of keeping carbs low? Theoretically, of course.


    Thanks again.
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    Oh my; I will have to look at all the new posts in this one tomorrow.

    That's a lot to respond to in one sitting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    I also think that perhaps by using certain GDAs you actually force gluconeogenesis, sometimes you might actually fill some glycogen stores. Im not sure... might be IMPOSSIBLE, but I can see this being a problem with ingesting various herbs to illicit a response.

    Good read, been here from the beginning but didnt want to pollute the thread.

    Hopefully this doesn't.

    One quick question for those that might know~

    How LONG can one be glycogen depleted before the response of glycogen supercompensation starts to diminish? And how long does it take to get into that supercompensation phase? the ultimate diet 2.0 which has you doing 1.5g*lbm(lbs) per day at around bwx8 for cals for 4 days. Doing a high volume "pump" type workout for 2 days. Then doing a higher weight "hypertrophy" style workout, then refeeding.

    Is this long enough? Would it be beneficial for us to take this further? For example, do the first 2 days maybe more spread out, then refeed after a longer period?

    Another I just thought of is~ About how long, theoretically, does it take before the body starts trying to refill glycogen via cortisol? And how long before this response overshadows the benefit of keeping carbs low? Theoretically, of course.


    Thanks again.
    Great question, cortisol will aid in increasing i assume only liver glycogen since its what controls blood sugar, aside from that working out and the flow of lactic acid back to krebs can be stored as glycogen.

    vanadyl although D doesnt like it, aids in blocking gluconeogenesis and lowering blood glucose. If you wanted something to blunt rise in sugars mediated by cortisol, look into HOLY BASIL
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    I'd assume this is where adaptogens and the lot might start to play a role?
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    Great thread!

    So what is your recommended dose of R-ala or Na-rala in terms of a lower carb meal for ex. 50g or less, and a larger carb meal of say 100-200g?
  

  
 

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