PH/PS/DS/AAS and PCT - AnabolicMinds.com

PH/PS/DS/AAS and PCT

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    PH/PS/DS/AAS and PCT


    This is going to be open discussion for all things related to PH/PS/DS/AAS and PCT. Understand that Dana Houser, MD does NOT condone the use and/or sale of said controlled agents, but he does understand that it is, in fact, an active part of body composition alteration and athletic performance (with greater than 99% of athletes, in fact, using SOMETHING) with continued regulatory effects that will ONLY make the situation far worse (something government may never understand). In fact, it only continues many to turn to black market sourcing...

    As such, while medical doctors treat your average heroin addict on a daily basis, turning your back on steroid users places a significant portion of the population at large at high risk as government has "your best interest in mind." Well, there is a large science involved with aesthetic-alteration and hormonal disarray that exists with continued use. We acknowledge that and accept what may come with its continued persuance.



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    You didn't just put heroin (opiate) addiction and steroid abuse in the same category?
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    This reminds me of last year's ISSN Conference at the conclusion of my talk on post-cycle therapeutics, albeit with an opposing punch line.

    A guy in the audience raised his hand and said, "So you're telling people how to use steroids?"

    My response was very simple, "I am uncertain what talk you listened to over the course of the last 45 minutes, but you may be the only person in this room who took that message! When I treat a heroin user, I wouldn't turn him/her away in times of therapy, why is it you'd offer that I should do the same to someone using steroids?"

    Of course, he had no reply.


    In your situation, it sounds like I somehow struck a nerve. I can tell you that you're in luck because I treat both of the suggested patient subsets; not something many docs would tell you. At the same time, I can honestly say the following...

    Anabolics are certainly "similar" to heroin in many instances outside of the receptor (androgen versus mu); but addiction rates and areas of highlight in the brain are very similar in cases of steroid abuse versus heroin abuse. In particular, the limbic system. This would not be new in that instance, however, as it is similar in addiction of food, sex, drugs (of any sort), etc...

    BUT NO, I WAS NOT COMPARING THE TWO...please do not tell me you didn't see the forest through the trees like my "dear friend" from the FDA. I have been writing on the unfortunate demonization of steroids for almost two decades for Christ's sake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    This reminds me of last year's ISSN Conference at the conclusion of my talk on post-cycle therapeutics, albeit with an opposing punch line.

    A guy in the audience raised his hand and said, "So you're telling people how to use steroids?"

    My response was very simple, "I am uncertain what talk you listened to over the course of the last 45 minutes, but you may be the only person in this room who took that message! When I treat a heroin user, I wouldn't turn him/her away in times of therapy, why is it you'd offer that I should do the same to someone using steroids?"

    Of course, he had no reply.


    In your situation, it sounds like I somehow struck a nerve. I can tell you that you're in luck because I treat both of the suggested patient subsets; not something many docs would tell you. At the same time, I can honestly say the following...

    Anabolics are certainly "similar" to heroin in many instances outside of the receptor (androgen versus mu); but addiction rates and areas of highlight in the brain are very similar in cases of steroid abuse versus heroin abuse. In particular, the limbic system. This would not be new in that instance, however, as it is similar in addiction of food, sex, drugs (of any sort), etc...

    BUT NO, I WAS NOT COMPARING THE TWO...please do not tell me you didn't see the forest through the trees like my "dear friend" from the FDA. I have been writing on the unfortunate demonization of steroids for almost two decades for Christ's sake.

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    Who are you talking to?

    To use the two in the same sentence is silly.

    Physiological/physical addiction and psychological addiction are two different animals. In quitting, one risks physical death, the other will feel bad about himself and feel like dying.

    I would caution those that "see the forest" in the story that you are telling to not miss the trees.

    They'll listen to you. You're the doctor, right?
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    I am uncertain how to respond to your statement actually (a response like this sours me to posting at all).

    I am afraid you missed the point with the comment and immediately fired out a response.

    See - addiction aside, if you re-read my first post (and it's unfortunate on message boards that things somehow get lost in translation and you spend umpteen posts trying to get something back on track), you'd see that my statement was -

    MAINSTREAM MEDICINE ("medical doctors") have no issue treating someone like a heroin addict.

    MAINSTREAM MEDICINE does - for the most part - have an issue with people using anabolics.

    I don't know that I was comparing the two per se. What I said threafter was...inherent in ALL addiction is that similar areas of the limbic system light up in brain studies of ANY addictive substance (save the physiological vs. psychologic argument as it is something created to rationalize a difference that doesn't exist). This is a neuroendocrine offering and the dopaminergic interplay (neurons) of said system and endocrine feedback is VERY MUCH SO RELATED. Suggest it as you will and we can agree to disagree but the distaste in your last statement was enough to really dishearten me to this.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    I am uncertain how to respond to your statement actually (a response like this sours me to posting at all).
    Really? Your convictions and beliefs are so easily swayed. You're skin that thin? Toughen up big guy. There's a cold cruel world out there. Not everyone is going to agree with you.

    I am afraid you missed the point with the comment and immediately fired out a response.
    I did miss your point but did not immediately fire a response.

    See - addiction aside, if you re-read my first post (and it's unfortunate on message boards that things somehow get lost in translation and you spend umpteen posts trying to get something back on track), you'd see that my statement was -

    MAINSTREAM MEDICINE ("medical doctors") have no issue treating someone like a heroin addict.

    MAINSTREAM MEDICINE does - for the most part - have an issue with people using anabolics.
    I understand better your point.

    I don't know that I was comparing the two per se. What I said threafter was...inherent in ALL addiction is that similar areas of the limbic system light up in brain studies of ANY addictive substance (save the physiological vs. psychologic argument as it is something created to rationalize a difference that doesn't exist). This is a neuroendocrine offering and the dopaminergic interplay (neurons) of said system and endocrine feedback is VERY MUCH SO RELATED.
    I agree with the fact that the administration of the respective substances has similarities in the sense that you present it. But that is where it ends IMHO.

    Medically supervising or treating a heroin addict to recover from his addiction (whether physical or psychological) has a means to an end. It is to get and remain heroin (illegal substance) free for a lifetime.

    Medically supervising or treating a steroid user (or addict, whether physical or psychological) to properly perform a PCT for an illegal substance is an other animal entirely. One is potentially a lifesaving treatment for an addiction to an illegal substance. The other is enabling the safer and continued use of an illegal substance. If not, then please explain to me how they are not different or the same?
    Suggest it as you will and we can agree to disagree but the distaste in your last statement was enough to really dishearten me to this.


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    Again with the whining "I'll stop posting."

    Did you suppose you would just post away here and not have differing opinions and views that you would need to entertain in intelligent discussion without assuming one has ill will?

    You are a doctor, right? A real one? You are a grown man, right? Then please don't be so easily dissuaded by a challenge.

    It was and is not in any way inflammatory. It was simply a challenge to your reasoning.

    I apologize for the forest and the trees comment. You were the one that got all metaphoric on us.

    Seriously. Sorry.
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    Questions...

    1.) Does using hCG during the cycle to keep testicles functioning actually help once you reach PCT since the testes are semi-functional?

    2.) Can low doses of hCG be administered in PCT without LH suppression?
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    One more question here...

    I've read that there is more of the aromatase enzyme in the chest area for males and females... does this mean if I am injecting testosterone suspension into the chest, it will convert to estrogen at a higher rate than if I was injecting into the quads? I'm thinking it would since the testosterone is fully active with no ester and exposed to higher amounts of aromatase.

    Is there truth to this and is this of any concern where you would advise not to inject testosterone suspension into the chest?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    One more question here...

    I've read that there is more of the aromatase enzyme in the chest area for males and females... does this mean if I am injecting testosterone suspension into the chest, it will convert to estrogen at a higher rate than if I was injecting into the quads? I'm thinking it would since the testosterone is fully active with no ester and exposed to higher amounts of aromatase.

    Is there truth to this and is this of any concern where you would advise not to inject testosterone suspension into the chest?
    That seems very plausible, id like to here an opinion on this as well. I definitely have no plan on pec injections though, haha
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Really? Your convictions and beliefs are so easily swayed. You're skin that thin? Toughen up big guy. There's a cold cruel world out there. Not everyone is going to agree with you.

    I did miss your point but did not immediately fire a response.

    I understand better your point.

    I agree with the fact that the administration of the respective substances has similarities in the sense that you present it. But that is where it ends IMHO.

    Medically supervising or treating a heroin addict to recover from his addiction (whether physical or psychological) has a means to an end. It is to get and remain heroin (illegal substance) free for a lifetime.

    Medically supervising or treating a steroid user (or addict, whether physical or psychological) to properly perform a PCT for an illegal substance is an other animal entirely. One is potentially a lifesaving treatment for an addiction to an illegal substance. The other is enabling the safer and continued use of an illegal substance. If not, then please explain to me how they are not different or the same?Again with the whining "I'll stop posting."

    Did you suppose you would just post away here and not have differing opinions and views that you would need to entertain in intelligent discussion without assuming one has ill will?

    You are a doctor, right? A real one? You are a grown man, right? Then please don't be so easily dissuaded by a challenge.

    It was and is not in any way inflammatory. It was simply a challenge to your reasoning.

    I apologize for the forest and the trees comment. You were the one that got all metaphoric on us.

    Seriously. Sorry.
    There are not many, if any, physicians who would take the time out to partake in such a thing as posting on message boards. Be that all as it may with the "whining" - my point remains clear...I take the time out, NOT because I feel everyone will listen to me cause I am the doctor; but perhaps offer some insight with a career rooted in bodybuilding FIRST and medicine SECOND. The passion for medicine actually arrived out of the passion for bodybuilding and this is no chicken and egg argument. It is challenging to come on and take time out for any unimpactful discussion; I just don't have the time - hence my comment and nothing more.

    My associative offering of heroin was not necessarily one of comparison, but one to illustrate that something seen AS "BAD" AS heroin (if you want to harbor a paternalistic view; although I try not to in either case) to the layperson AND modern medicine as a whole - no one questions the implementation of therapies designed toward the worse of two evils (but again, that is a judgement I am not positioned to place). I try and remain as objective as is feasibly possible and nothing more.

    Hopefully that position is more clear; but if not - perhaps we could entertain further discussion in PM as this would be a thread I would ultimately look at as bicker and become disinterested if I were the reader and that was NOT the point.


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    I am happy to see that hCG was one of the first discussion points. Oftentimes the quintessential concern is centered on peripheral side effects (i.e. - gyno, hair loss, lipids, blood pressure, et al...) at the expense of the most serious central side effect, hypothalamic-pituitary-dysfunction. hCG does play quintessential role here as the most tried and true (not the only). To answer your questions...


    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    1.) Does using hCG during the cycle to keep testicles functioning actually help once you reach PCT since the testes are semi-functional?
    The two prototypical regimens I might employ therapeutically are one with low dose (as little as 300-500 IU daily) used throughout the cycle and/or higher dose (1000-as much as 5000 IU three times per week) if simply initiated in PCT. I would continue hCG in the case of the low-dose peri-cycle protcol; especially for the guy who still wants children. Even with on-cycle use; we have noted an average decline in sperm count that approaches literature values still at 22 months in some people (the subfertile state thought to be direct result in attenuation of testosterone). Still, there are dose- and time-dependency factors that will come into play here as well.

    Again, some may not like my sperm count offering as they may certainly not care about fertility status, but it is a reflective number to approximate how long the HPGA may remain compromised, and given the dearth of research alloted in this subject area, it is the way we can translate that which has, in fact, been looked at.


    2.) Can low doses of hCG be administered in PCT without LH suppression?
    Yes; dependent upon duration of the cycle and relative HPGA dysfunction (as alluded to above). There is negative feedback at the level of the hypothalamus to shut down GnRH and subsequently LH (and FSH), which will be inherently dependent upon the degree of shutdown. If you look at doses and ways used (daily versus three times per week); this focuses on how to best bring back the HPGA in my experience over the last few years with select patients and likely reflects the doses able to best keep negative feedback at bay.



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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    One more question here...

    I've read that there is more of the aromatase enzyme in the chest area for males and females... does this mean if I am injecting testosterone suspension into the chest, it will convert to estrogen at a higher rate than if I was injecting into the quads? I'm thinking it would since the testosterone is fully active with no ester and exposed to higher amounts of aromatase.

    Is there truth to this and is this of any concern where you would advise not to inject testosterone suspension into the chest?
    Quote Originally Posted by kevinhy View Post
    That seems very plausible, id like to here an opinion on this as well. I definitely have no plan on pec injections though, haha
    Kevinhy, I think I was thinking the same thing as I was reading that...why on Earth would one subject themselves to pec injections (unless perhaps the experienced user who has accumulated a boat-load of scarring and/or the elite-level competitor), but alas I digress...

    To give only an educated guesstimate on the question at hand though (as I admittedly have no familiarity with this practice); the functioning level of aromatase is directly correlational to the amount of adipose tissue which does tend to run prevelant in the area of the breast by default. This could be compounded in the aged male and/or the person with gyno and mammary-stromal changes; where the sheer number of adipose cells is on the upswing.

    So, while a pec injection may certainly offer more area for rotation; it may be irresponsible to offer it as even an option for some people (as above). Looking at your avatar and provided that this is representative of you; I don't think adipose would be your concern though.


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    Thanks for the detailed responses.

    I run multiple short esters at a time and sometimes no ester compounds so I run out of injection sites very fast. That's why I resorted to chest but I will be very careful not to pin in fatty areas using testosterone suspension from now on.

    Some other questions I have are:

    1.) What doses of hCG in PCT would be best to keep LH suppression at bay from the hCG itself? (I don’t think you mentioned what dose for PCT).

    2.) I’m noticing scar tissue in my delts very recently. The area lumps with oil post injections and the area is a lot harder to push the needle into (smooth as butter before) and also harder to inject the oil into. If I lay off injections to the delts for a while will the area return back to normal since this happened very recently or is it once these “symptoms” show up it is already true scar tissue for life?

    3.) Are the benefits of Deca-Durabolin or Nandrolone Phenyl Propionate (NPP) on the joints temporary only during use of the compound or do they have the ability to permanently help/heal the joints even after coming off the compound? My shoulder has felt amazing since starting Deca and I'm hoping this will last after I stop the Deca...
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    1.) What doses of hCG in PCT would be best to keep LH suppression at bay from the hCG itself? (I don’t think you mentioned what dose for PCT).

    Well, this is a qualified "it depends." If using low-dose throughout the cycle; similar low-dosing protocol is still usually ample (possibly a little higher); but if you have foregone use of hCG through the cycle, then we're probably talking a minimum of 1,500 IU to make certain you are still getting LH-mimetic effects from the hCG itself. Possibly needless to say, however, I cannot give "recommendations" on this matter that would be any more specific than that.


    2.) I’m noticing scar tissue in my delts very recently. The area lumps with oil post injections and the area is a lot harder to push the needle into (smooth as butter before) and also harder to inject the oil into. If I lay off injections to the delts for a while will the area return back to normal since this happened very recently or is it once these “symptoms” show up it is already true scar tissue for life?
    Unfortunately as I am unable to examine the area myself, I am at a loss for what is actually happening to said area. If it is, in fact, true SCAR tissue....you will have it for life; scar tissue is fibrotic change, but I am suspicious given the apparent abruptness of your site concerns.



    3.) Are the benefits of Deca-Durabolin or Nandrolone Phenyl Propionate (NPP) on the joints temporary only during use of the compound or do they have the ability to permanently help/heal the joints even after coming off the compound? My shoulder has felt amazing since starting Deca and I'm hoping this will last after I stop the Deca...
    Unfortunately, I am unsure one can predict with certainty whether or not anabolic effects felt at the level of the joint would be promoted long-term. There is a lot more data on the effects on the tendon as opposed to the overt joint (articular cartilage) itself. I would presume without too much compromise to the hypothalamic axis (see hCG discussion); you are probably going to see some improvement continue after, although there may be some regression...but I think its anyone's guess.


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    i am also in for this one, great issues such as hcg, and the like!

    will have some questions soon as well on perhaps hrt/trt if the doc cares to elicit an answer to ay of them?
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    As a Natural body builder i am sometimes tempted by some of the anabolic products that are becoming available. What are your thoughts on some of the new pro-hormones coming to the market that are derivatives of DHEA (such as the primordial performance andro-series)? Are they as 'safe' as they are made out to be?

    Thanks

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    Has any scientific literature shown permanently damaged HPTAs from the use of anabolic androgenic steroids?


    You hear lots of anecdotal horror stories on the forums, but every piece of data I've read shows the hormone levels return to homeostasis, it can just take a long time (one study on deca took a year for recovery).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docmattic View Post
    As a Natural body builder i am sometimes tempted by some of the anabolic products that are becoming available. What are your thoughts on some of the new pro-hormones coming to the market that are derivatives of DHEA (such as the primordial performance andro-series)? Are they as 'safe' as they are made out to be?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Docmattic View Post
    As a Natural body builder i am sometimes tempted by some of the anabolic products that are becoming available. What are your thoughts on some of the new pro-hormones coming to the market that are derivatives of DHEA (such as the primordial performance andro-series)? Are they as 'safe' as they are made out to be?

    Thanks

    Doc

    DHEA has been tricky to understand on many levels; let alone it's metabolites - despite what marketing may suggest. Assuming your avatar is, in fact, you - you look like a pretty young guy for which I would say, skip it and save a boatload of money as they are being charged for at a VERY high dollar amount if I recall correctly.


    But aside from just cost...

    One concern I have is with those using it in search of an anabolic offering; the degree of how upstream the metabolite will influence anabolic/catabolic offering (yes, DHEA and it's metabolites CAN ALSO BE CATABOLIC). Then, of course, you must factor in a dose-dependency...with higher levels, you may achieve better results - but there is another edge to that sword.

    DHEA inhibits glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PDH), an enzyme that breaks down glucose. There are two glucose-metabolizing pathways in the body: the catabolic, energy-yielding pathway, and the anabolic, biosynthetic pathway. G6PDH happens to be the first enzyme in the biosynthetic pathway, the one which results in the synthesis of fatty acids and ribose (the sugar used in making deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA). In simple language, G6PDH turns glucose into fat. DHEA's inhibition of G6PDH may redirect glucose from anabolic fat-production into catabolic energy metabolism, thus creating a leaner metabolism.

    While that may sound great from a fat loss standpoint, keep in mind that UNLESS you are suffering from a significant decline in DHEA (and, obviously it's metabolites...like people from an aged standpoint), then you will likely not see precipitous benefit. Also, being too far upstream might also mean shunting down an estrogenic cascade. Again, I understand the claims and understand the suggestion of manufacturers that this not be a possibility or suggesting a bit of estrogen is not a bad thing for muscle growth (that's really pushing the envelope btw). Let me make it abundantly clear - perhaps with an exclusion of the 7-keto pathway; a lot of these metabolites are POORLY understood despite the best suggestion by manufacturers and I would argue it to the death (and I am possibly dubbed a bad guy as a result, a tag I am willing to wear).

    At the same time, the consumer remains optimistic (hopefully in a cautious fashion) that maybe, just maybe...something will "save" us from all the oral PH/PS/DS bans meanwhile embracing the role of being guinea pigs for certain companies and nothing more.

    Now - you may think I am adamantly against their use with my response, BUT that is far from the case...I am ALL FOR experimentation and pushing the ergogenic envelope (in fact, I have done plenty of it in my day and sometimes still do - see DAA stuff, et al...) with the idea that everyone understands what they are doing and to the best of our ability (I think that this falls short a lot unfortunately) and not sugar-coating it or being dubious in presentation. In other words, if you are going to play the role of an experimental participant; understand all the potential risks and benefits.

    Moving to the products in question...there have been some things Primordial has done that left me scratching my head and while I can't immediately write off the "Andro Series" products (I'll get to the why in a minute), I am fearful that donning the name "Andro" has a connotation that is very dubious - trying to allow the consumer to jump on a certain train of thought that may not exactly be the case.

    DHEA has been referenced as a "Buffering Steroid" - but we're hoping its steroid offering is not just structure alone. DHEA and its metabolites may be unique among hormones for its lack of specificity for hormone receptor sites. Just as vitamin E has never been shown to have a specific metabolic role (it is only proven essential as a general antioxidant), DHEA and metabolites may serve an equally general purpose and that's not necessarily a bad thing. They are broad-acting hormones that only demonstrate themselves under a specific set of circumstances. In that way, it is comparable to a buffer against sudden changes in acidity or alkalinity. That is why when you get older, you're much more vulnerable to the effects of stress. As DHEA and subsequently metabolites decline with age, you are losing the buffer against stress-related hormones. It is the buffer action that [helps prevent] us from aging. The decrease of DHEA and metabolites with age may result in gradual decline of a system for suppressing enzyme systems responsible for creating the building blocks of new cells, such as lipids, nucleic acids (RNA and DNA), and sex steroids. The resulting rise in enzymatic activity in advanced age may be responsible for the proliferative events (e.g., cancer) and degenerative disease that become more frequent in advanced age. In this respect, DHEA and metabolites might be best considered to be an anti-hormone, which may "de-excite" steroid-sensitive receptors that would otherwise lead to enhanced metabolic activity.

    Now - the adrenal gland is fun, imperative, and without it you'd not be able to cope with stress and die! That's pretty drastic; one might see the workout timeframe as a period of significant stress that allows even the youngest person achieve a biochemical profile of the aged. In other words, if results are to be achieved and they are measurable, they are going to be in the acute workout setting...especially with extension of workouts beyond the 45-55 minute mark and nothing more.

    From a "safety" standpoint; I don't know enough about you to make such an outrageous assessment nor do I believe anyone could say with 100% certainty that they understand the safety features of ANY of these metabolites. I would be doing you a disservice to saying I know how such a supplement could benefit your particular case. For starters, you are young...but as I said above, while your levels may not be down...in an acute setting or if you are even overttraining; the products may harbor a benefit...but I know nothing about your regimen.

    If you're competing...in a truly "natural" fashion - which I think kind of goes the way of the dinosaur as I think 100% of people aren't "natural" in its truest dimensions (i.e. - excess food which is anabolic, supplements which are unnatural in tallies and so on...). But, let's say you compete in a natural show...then you may run into some resistance from use.

    I can't blame temptation. When Androstenedione was first released (around the time OSMO was making it - ha... you can ask Patrick Arnold about that project), I went out of my way to find it ... I was bright-eyed, bushy-tailed and in my early years of endocrine development. We subsequently discovered quite a bit more about it and I wish I hadn't taken it (possibly how you'd feel with multiple years of these metabolites on the market, I am unsure). But - there's a point...you're still looking to achieve your best physique; to better yourself...and I cannot fault the concept.

    Would it do you benefit in the acute setting of a workout? Possibly. Is it going to be so astronomic that it will make a precipitous difference in the long-term? Probably not. If you're going to invest in something, I'd say - let the other guy be the guinea pig. There are things that are available that are more "tried and true." Am I endorsing illegal use of anything? NO WAY! But, I am saying that government has made the situation far from enticing to say the things that remain are the SAFEST, we just don't know enough (and again, I will take on all challengers that would like to protest that).

    Where does that leave you? No idea. I am willing to bet with 100% certainy that anything I say will cure your curiosity. You are either going to embark on the media-based "darkside" or you're not. Just be as well informed as you can (kind of hard in this situation) and maybe understand that the decisions to remain "natural" (whatever the hell that means anymore) is a "moral" one and probably nothing more.



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  26. dinoiii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinhy View Post
    Has any scientific literature shown permanently damaged HPTAs from the use of anabolic androgenic steroids?
    Well, there is a literature piece from earlier this year suggesting maintained infertility (perhaps an indirect measure; I did cite it in the "Fertility" thread in this subforum) in the aftermath of use. I would only protest that it is time and dose dependent. How can we best understand these agents and take them in a way that would minimally impact us in the long-term; that's the true holy grail here. We do our best to minimize said effects (i.e. - adjunctive agents, PCT, etc...) and I am unsure we can do more.



    You hear lots of anecdotal horror stories on the forums, but every piece of data I've read shows the hormone levels return to homeostasis, it can just take a long time (one study on deca took a year for recovery).
    And the average recovery actually is cited at about 22 months! Plan accordingly!

    That said, in the above case - we're talking suppression still existent at 3 years! Not anecdote; but literature citation, if that's what we're using to best assess.


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  27. RipdnTxs's Avatar
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    What are your thoughts on Bioidentical Testosterone Replacemnt Therapy as opposed to synthetic. My new Doc. switched me over about 3 months ago. I have read some interesting things about it on BodyLogic and other sites. I wuold love to hear your opinion.....
  28. bill86's Avatar
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    first off, let me just thank you for taking your time to answer our questions and help us out on these message boards.

    i just wanted to ask a few specific questions. im planning on asking my doctor the same questions next time i have to see him, but always like to have a few different opinions (plus, ive got a high copay and dont want to have to pay to see him just to ask about steroids haha).

    now, i know you dont condone or promote steroid use (im sure my doctor doesnt either, which is why im going to ask you just like i plan on asking him)... but.... after working out for 10 years, being at the point where i leave EVERYTHING in the gym, eat 5-7 meals a day, count calories, etc, etc, my gains have slowed down to the point where i honestly feel like im approaching my natural peak (i have a very small frame for someone my height, so 6'2-6'3 210 isnt quite as small as it sounds on paper lol). with that said, there is a very good chance i will turn to anabolics within the next couple of years, after trying a few last ditch efforts on anabeta, erase, daa and a few other newer supps, but want to be as safe as possible.

    the problem is, i have anxiety, and take citalopram for it (ive worked my way from 40mg at one point, down to 5mg where i am now, but just cant seem to come off the damn stuff altogether). also, at one point my blood pressure was around 140-145/85-90, but now sits in the 120's/70-80's.

    i was under the assumption that the the androseries was kind of a 'break through' in anabolics, where the side effects or risks are VERY minimal (however, they also yield more 'minimal' gains than harsher compounds, which i figured was the trade off).

    i was just wondering what kind of SPECIFIC long term effects you were speaking of may apply to someone like myself, a 25 year old who eats fairly clean (find it hard sometimes to get over 3000 calories a day clean though), and whether my medication, blood pressure or anxiety would be affected by either the steroid or a serm. i spoke to a couple of pharmacists who told me nolvadex is pretty light on sides, and i shouldnt have a problem with it, but they were unfamiliar with stuff like torem.

    lastly, if someone is dead set on using something, in your opinion, would it be better to 'be the guinea pig' with something thats SUPPOSED to be mild on the body, like andromass, or something that may be slightly harsher but has been around a bit longer like epistane? (andromass also piqued my interest because of how many people i saw 'recovering' with just the TRS+TCF1 stack, as opposed to having to use a serm with something like epistane, which is a whole other concern of mine)


    thanks a lot!
  29. DonnyG's Avatar
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    Doc, put quite frankly, what do you think are the safest DS/PH out today? No brand name necessary...we can do the legwork on that.
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    What is your thoughts on pulsing something like Epistane to minimize suppression or shutdown?

    Pulse cycle:

    40mg 3 times a week monday, wednesday and friday.

    Thanks
    Check my AnaBeta, Erase and DAA log at:

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/178490-anabeta-erase-daa.html
  31. Jahcuree
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonnyG View Post
    Doc, put quite frankly, what do you think are the safest DS/PH out today? No brand name necessary...we can do the legwork on that.
    in for this
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    Absolutely subbed... No brainer imo
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post

    Now - the adrenal gland is fun, imperative, and without it you'd not be able to cope with stress and die! That's pretty drastic; one might see the workout timeframe as a period of significant stress that allows even the youngest person achieve a biochemical profile of the aged. In other words, if results are to be achieved and they are measurable, they are going to be in the acute workout setting...especially with extension of workouts beyond the 45-55 minute mark and nothing more.

    From a "safety" standpoint; I don't know enough about you to make such an outrageous assessment nor do I believe anyone could say with 100% certainty that they understand the safety features of ANY of these metabolites. I would be doing you a disservice to saying I know how such a supplement could benefit your particular case. For starters, you are young...but as I said above, while your levels may not be down...in an acute setting or if you are even overttraining; the products may harbor a benefit...but I know nothing about your regimen.





    D_
    Its long overdue, but id really like to thank you for that very thorough response.

    One question i have from your response. You said that these suppliments could be beneficial in an acute workout setting if workouts are over 45mins (ish). My workouts tend to be on the 90min-100 min range (with cardio) and are quite intense for the whole period. My shirt is dripping with sweat by the end of the workout.

    Are you saying that these supplements could be of benefit in this case? or would you need a detailed outline of my workouts regimen to know?

    Thanks
    ~Get shredded or die trying! The alphamine chapter~
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/213632-get-shredded-die.html
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    Subbed for any info on oral steroids and responsible use. (if we can even call orals responsible lol)
    ~ Serious Nutrition Solutions ~
    Revolutionizing Nutrition, AND your body!
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  35. mattrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhadam View Post
    Subbed for any info on oral steroids and responsible use. (if we can even call orals responsible lol)
    Yes, i believe we can
    RecoverBro ELITE
  

  
 

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