BCAA discussion thread - AnabolicMinds.com

BCAA discussion thread

Page 1 of 2 12 Last
  1. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    BCAA discussion thread


    It is often stated to consume Branched-Chain-Amino-Acids (BCAAs) in a "scientifically-specified" ratio of 2:1:1 - leucine:isoleucine:valine or is it 4:1:1 or some products suggesting 8:1:1 or bound to sustamine (glutamine-bound) or micronized or... Get the point? This thread is designated to address ANY and ALL questions pertaining to particular BCAA supplements and more.

    Example real-life question:

    Q: Could you pleease elaborate on (or point me in the direction) how BCAA supplementation is detrimental to baseline metabolicaly inefficient users, and what dosing parameters and importance it serves in athletes with a more efficient metabolism? I remember a forum post where you mention this protocol but was not able to find any of your additional writings on it.

    A: This does not seem to be an issue with just leucine alone seeing as though this is the ONLY strict ketogenic amino acid; but isoleucine and valine (at least in part) have some glucogenic offering (in other words, an amino acid that can be converted into glucose through gluconeogenesis). You are primarily concerned with glycemic variation as a metabolically-inefficient person and these aminos scattered about the day cause GLYCEMIC GRIEF. And yes, they DO, in fact, interfere with counter-regulatory secretion as glucogenic processes stimulate subsequent insulin release (all of which will ultimately inhibit lipolysis).


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  2. New Member
    alkaline.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    4
    Rep Power
    44

    Reputation

    dr. h, what do you say to the notion that leucine is "toxic" when consumed in large amounts in proportion to valine and isoleucine.
    and that even though only leucine promotes protein synthesis,
    it depletes valine and isoleucine, and the lack of valine and isoleucine inhibits protein synthesis?

    i ask this because i'm currently supplementing with 10 grams BCAA's (ratio 2:1:1) pre and post workout, making good gains.
    but i'm wondering if i switch to supplementing with only leucine; would it help or hurt my progress?

    thanks!
  3. Diamond Member
    T-Bone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    15,941
    Rep Power
    4568195

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    So you're saying taking bcaa supplements is counter-productive to fat loss while on a low carb diet?. I'm not sure if what you say "on paper" actually makes sense in real world situations. I had been taking a 2:1:1 bcaa supplement while working out since January and recently had to stop because I just don't have enough money to continue taking it. I've noticed a huge drop in endurance during my workouts, but no significant increase in fat loss(which is what you would expect if what you say is true about bcaa products stimulating insulin release).
    •   
       

  4. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    I don't know about "toxic" per se (perhaps someone could better assist that discussion if they are privy to ACTUAL studies suggesting that, not marketing tripe), BUT there is information to suggest that there is such thing as "too much" leucine in regards to what you'll actually get out of it (read: efficacy).

    I mean, leucine - in isolation of the other BCAAs - wasn't even part of the literature before about 2006 that I am aware of. In other words, BCAA studies were running rampant while leucine in isolation (without valine or isoleucine) just weren't being done. Now, we're using it as a therapeutic element in diabetics (in isolation without the others) and there aren't the side effects you speak of, especially toxicity of any nature.

    Let me ask about companies that use 8:1:1 or 10:1:1 or 12:1:1...if this were the case, you also would need to keep this ratio very proportionate. The rationale for marketing was that it is the "closest to that of actual muscle tissue, yadda, yadda."

    There really hasn't been a lot of adiposity data coming significantly positive in the HUMAN literature (rat studies are inherently different), but there is with adiponectin; which means change in overt visceral offering IS occuring.

    All of this data is in the acute setting...we have NO IDEA what long-term effects will be seen. There is a study that has been on-going since 2008 which is trying to evaluate the long-term effects, but outside of anectdote...it seems all we have is industry fodder.

    So, what the hell am I saying; I would be surprised if changing from BCAA to leucine supplementation does a lot, if anything, to your general body composition...what I do think is - if you upped the amount of leucine, you'd likely have better glycemic control (pertinent to body composition); you'll have better lipid parameters; you'll see similar changes from a muscle belly standpoint AND that's because there IS a ceiling to how much leucine you can use with success...accounting for about 25% of the average amino pool. Beyond that, I don't think you'll see much difference...literature doesn't support it anyway.

    You'd only have to figure out what 1/4 of your amino acid pool was in a day. Because the data is in the acute setting...peri-workout may very well be considered different, but again...25% so if 40 grams of protein is ingested say post-workout; you'd strive for a ceiling limit of 10 grams of leucine, beyond which is likely no benefit.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  5. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    So you're saying taking bcaa supplements is counter-productive to fat loss while on a low carb diet?. I'm not sure if what you say "on paper" actually makes sense in real world situations. I had been taking a 2:1:1 bcaa supplement while working out since January and recently had to stop because I just don't have enough money to continue taking it. I've noticed a huge drop in endurance during my workouts, but no significant increase in fat loss(which is what you would expect if what you say is true about bcaa products stimulating insulin release).
    Dependent upon your total amount of BCAA and your total amino pool (which I have no idea based on the information you have provided, or lack thereof); IF you had enough BCAAs in your amino pool ON a ketogenic diet...you WILL breach the subgluconeogenic threshhold and this could promote fat gain for those metabolically INefficient.

    If you have done nothing in the body composition realm with BCAA since their initiation in January, I have said that they will likely do NOTHING in removal = and you have proved a point. You don't all of a sudden become an efficient or inefficient person metabolically speaking; this is genetically pre-determined.

    I anticipate you're a thin guy?


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  6. Pro Virili Parte
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,867
    Rep Power
    2219906

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    While it may look good on paper, time and time again leucine supplementation alone has failed to deliver an anabolic effect (an increase in LBM) in humans where BCAAs and EAAs have. Just about every nutrient will stimulate an insulin release. Insulin alone doesn't hinder fat loss. If it did, the only way to get lean would be to never eat. Maintaining good insulin sensitivity in muscle while keeping insulin levels stable for the majority of your day should be your goal.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  7. Diamond Member
    T-Bone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    15,941
    Rep Power
    4568195

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Dependent upon your total amount of BCAA and your total amino pool (which I have no idea based on the information you have provided, or lack thereof); IF you had enough BCAAs in your amino pool ON a ketogenic diet...you WILL breach the subgluconeogenic threshhold and this could promote fat gain for those metabolically INefficient.

    If you have done nothing in the body composition realm with BCAA since their initiation in January, I have said that they will likely do NOTHING in removal = and you have proved a point. You don't all of a sudden become an efficient or inefficient person metabolically speaking; this is genetically pre-determined.

    I anticipate you're a thin guy?


    D_

    On the contrary...
  8. Diamond Member
    T-Bone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    15,941
    Rep Power
    4568195

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Dependent upon your total amount of BCAA and your total amino pool (which I have no idea based on the information you have provided, or lack thereof); IF you had enough BCAAs in your amino pool ON a ketogenic diet...you WILL breach the subgluconeogenic threshhold and this could promote fat gain for those metabolically INefficient.

    If you have done nothing in the body composition realm with BCAA since their initiation in January, I have said that they will likely do NOTHING in removal = and you have proved a point. You don't all of a sudden become an efficient or inefficient person metabolically speaking; this is genetically pre-determined.

    I anticipate you're a thin guy?


    D_

    So in the bold section you are saying that particular conditions need to be met in order for BCAA supplement to cause fat gain?. Also when you refer to body composition what are you refering to?. Fat loss, muscle gain?. Since January I have lost quite a bit of fat and have gained much strength also. When I ceased taking the BCAA product I noticed a definite decline in the quality of my workouts, particularly reduced endurance. I run out of energy much quicker now than before. Still BCAA products are quite expensive and maybe I'll have the money in the future to use them again, maybe not, but I'm sure they make a difference especially in endurance and the kind of high volume long duration workouts I'm used to.
  9. New Member
    alkaline.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    4
    Rep Power
    44

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    So, what the hell am I saying; I would be surprised if changing from BCAA to leucine supplementation does a lot, if anything, to your general body composition...what I do think is - if you upped the amount of leucine, you'd likely have better glycemic control (pertinent to body composition); you'll have better lipid parameters; you'll see similar changes from a muscle belly standpoint AND that's because there IS a ceiling to how much leucine you can use with success...accounting for about 25% of the average amino pool. Beyond that, I don't think you'll see much difference...literature doesn't support it anyway.

    You'd only have to figure out what 1/4 of your amino acid pool was in a day. Because the data is in the acute setting...peri-workout may very well be considered different, but again...25% so if 40 grams of protein is ingested say post-workout; you'd strive for a ceiling limit of 10 grams of leucine, beyond which is likely no benefit.


    D_
    nice! gives me some food for thought... thanks for info!
  10. Elite Member
    MAxximal's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  235 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Age
    37
    Posts
    6,901
    Rep Power
    122080

    Reputation Reputation Reputation
    SNS Online Representative
    Maxximal @ seriousnutritionsolutions.com

    Got Glycophase ...?


  11. Elite Member
    MAxximal's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  235 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Age
    37
    Posts
    6,901
    Rep Power
    122080

    Reputation Reputation Reputation

    burn more fat with BCAA isoleucine?


    SNS Online Representative
    Maxximal @ seriousnutritionsolutions.com

    Got Glycophase ...?


  12. Elite Member
    MAxximal's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  235 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Age
    37
    Posts
    6,901
    Rep Power
    122080

    Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    While it may look good on paper, time and time again leucine supplementation alone has failed to deliver an anabolic effect (an increase in LBM) in humans where BCAAs and EAAs have. Just about every nutrient will stimulate an insulin release. Insulin alone doesn't hinder fat loss. If it did, the only way to get lean would be to never eat. Maintaining good insulin sensitivity in muscle while keeping insulin levels stable for the majority of your day should be your goal.
    the study was done on rats but who never know

    Leucine Intake Reduces Diet-Induced Obesity and Improves Glucose and Cholesterol Metabolism in Mice.

    http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org...56/6/1647.long
    SNS Online Representative
    Maxximal @ seriousnutritionsolutions.com

    Got Glycophase ...?


  13. Pro Virili Parte
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,867
    Rep Power
    2219906

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    the study was done on rats but who never know

    Leucine Intake Reduces Diet-Induced Obesity and Improves Glucose and Cholesterol Metabolism in Mice.

    http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org...56/6/1647.long
    That's why I specifically said humans. Although sometimes we can extrapolate data from studies on mice history has proven the mouse model doesn't always translate to humans. Furthermore why even consider research on leucine with mice when we have research on leucine and amino supplementation done on humans?

    Again leucine supplementation alone does not result in LBM gain over control (PMID:21487148 & PMID:19321567)

    Where BCAA and even HMB does
    (PMID:21327797 PMID:8709918)
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  14. AK DoubleWide 47
    AutoKal47's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"   lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    1,331
    Rep Power
    40541

    Reputation

    Sub'd
    ..:: ENHANCED BODY FORMULATIONS ::..
    Recompadrol & AAV2 - PM me with any questions

  15. Elite Member
    StackedCop's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,720
    Rep Power
    135804

    Reputation Reputation Reputation

    2:1:1 & 4:1:1 seem to be the way to go. 2:1:1 has the most research so I'll stick to 2:1:1 around my workout and 4:1:1 between meals.

  16. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    When looking at data (if we are restricting this discussion to human trials); the approximation of 25% your amino acid pool holds true....

    Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2010 Oct;20(5):409-17.
    The influence of 8 weeks of whey-protein and leucine supplementation on physical and cognitive performance.
    Walker TB, Smith J, Herrera M, Lebegue B, Pinchak A, Fischer J.
    SourceAir Force Research Laboratory, Brooks Air Force Base, San Antonio, TX, USA.

    Abstract
    The purpose of this study was to investigate the ability of whey-protein and leucine supplementation to enhance physical and cognitive performance and body composition. Thirty moderately fit participants completed a modified Air Force fitness test, a computer-based cognition test, and a dual-energy X-ray-absorptiometry scan for body composition before and after supplementing their daily diet for 8 wk with either 19.7 g of whey protein and 6.2 g leucine (WPL) or a calorie-equivalent placebo (P). Bench-press performance increased significantly from Week 1 to Week 8 in the WPL group, whereas the increase in the P group was not significant. Push-up performance increased significantly for WPL, and P showed a nonsignificant increase. Total mass, fat-free mass, and lean body mass all increased significantly in the WPL group but showed no change in the P group. No differences were observed within or between groups for crunches, chin-ups, 3-mile-run time, or cognition. The authors conclude that supplementing with whey protein and leucine may provide an advantage to people whose performance benefits from increased upper body strength and/or lean body mass.

    PMID:20975109[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  17. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    Certain studies and meta-analyses dismissed looking into leucine over a decade ago and we never got the number of studies attributed to BCAA; but the facts couldn't be disguised...people in the industry just took authors' faulty conclusions...

    Sports Med. 1999 Jun;27(6):347-58.
    Leucine supplementation and intensive training.
    Mero A.
    SourceDepartment of Biology of Physical Activity, University of Jyväskylä, Finland. mero@maila.jyu.fi

    Abstract
    Leucine, isoleucine and valine, the branched-chain amino acids (BCAA), make up about one-third of muscle protein. Of these, leucine has been the most thoroughly investigated because its oxidation rate is higher than that of isoleucine or valine. Leucine also stimulates protein synthesis in muscle and is closely associated with the release of gluconeogenic precursors, such as alanine, from muscle. Significant decreases in plasma or serum levels of leucine occur following aerobic (11 to 33%), anaerobic lactic (5 to 8%) and strength exercise (30%) sessions. In skeletal muscle, there is a decrease in leucine level and a reduction in glycogen stores during exhaustive aerobic exercise. Basal fasting serum leucine levels decrease by 20% during 5 weeks of speed and strength training in power-trained athletes on a daily protein intake of 1.26 g/kg bodyweight. The leucine content of protein is assumed to vary between 5 and 10%. There are suggestions that the current recommended dietary intake of leucine be increased from 14 mg/kg bodyweight/day to a minimum of 45 mg/kg bodyweight/day for sedentary individuals, and more for those participating in intensive training in order to optimise rates of whole body protein synthesis. Consumption of BCAA (30 to 35% leucine) before or during endurance exercise may prevent or decrease the net rate of protein degradation, may improve both mental and physical performance and may have a sparing effect on muscle glycogen degradation and depletion of muscle glycogen stores. However, leucine supplementation (200 mg/kg bodyweight) 50 minutes before anaerobic running exercise had no effect on performance. During 5 weeks of strength and speed training, leucine supplementation of 50 mg/kg bodyweight/day, supplementary to a daily protein intake of 1.26 g/kg bodyweight/day, appeared to prevent the decrease in the serum leucine levels in power-trained athletes. According to 1 study, dietary supplementation of the leucine metabolite beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) 3 g/day to humans undertaking intensive resistance training exercise resulted in an increased deposition of fat-free mass and an accompanying increase in strength. Muscle proteolysis was also decreased with HMB, accompanied by lower plasma levels of enzymes indicating muscle damage and an average 50% decrease in plasma essential amino acid levels. Furthermore, BCAA supplementation (76% leucine) in combination with moderate energy restriction has been shown to induce significant and preferential losses of visceral adipose tissue and to allow maintenance of a high level of performance. Caution must be paid when interpreting the limited number of studies in this area since, in many studies, leucine has been supplemented as part of a mixture of BCAA. Consequently, further research into the effects of leucine supplementation alone is needed.

    PMID:10418071[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  18. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    Eur J Appl Physiol. 2006 Aug;97(6):664-72. Epub 2005 Oct 29.
    Effects of dietary leucine supplementation on exercise performance.
    Crowe MJ, Weatherson JN, Bowden BF.
    SourceInstitute of Sport and Exercise Science, James Cook University, Townsville, QLD 4811, Australia. Melissa.Crowe@jcu.edu.au

    Abstract
    Branched chain amino acids (BCAA), particularly leucine, have been suggested to be ergogenic for both endurance and strength/power performance. This study investigated the effects of dietary leucine supplementation on the exercise performance of outrigger canoeists. Thirteen (ten female, three male) competitive outrigger canoeists [aged 31.6 (2.2) year, VO(2max) 47.1 (2.0) ml kg(-1) min(-1)] underwent testing before and after 6-week supplementation with either capsulated L: -leucine (45 mg kg(-1) d(-1); n = 6) or placebo (cornflour; n = 7). Testing included anthropometry, 10 s upper body power and work and a row to exhaustion at 70-75% maximal aerobic power where perceived exertion (RPE), heart rate (HR) and plasma BCAA and tryptophan concentrations were assessed. Leucine supplementation resulted in significant increases in plasma leucine and total BCAA concentrations. Upper body power and work significantly increased in both groups after supplementation but power was significantly greater after leucine supplementation compared to the placebo [6.7 (0.7) v. 6.0 (0.7) W kg(-1)]. Rowing time significantly increased [77.6 (6.3)-88.3 (7.3) min] and average RPE significantly decreased [14.5 (1.5)-12.9 (1.4)] with leucine supplementation while these variables were unchanged with the placebo. Leucine supplementation had no effect on the plasma tryptophan to BCAA ratio, HR or anthropometric variables. Six weeks' dietary leucine supplementation significantly improved endurance performance and upper body power in outrigger canoeists without significant change in the plasma ratio of tryptophan to BCAA.

    PMID:16265600[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  19. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2011 Apr;36(2):242-53.
    Leucine-protein supplemented recovery feeding enhances subsequent cycling performance in well-trained men.
    Thomson JS, Ali A, Rowlands DS.
    SourceSchool of Sport and Exercise, and The Institute of Food, Nutrition, and Human Health, Massey University, Wellington, New Zealand.

    Abstract
    The purpose of this study was to determine whether a practical leucine-protein, high-carbohydrate postexercise feeding regimen could improve recovery, as measured by subsequent cycling performance and mechanistic markers, relative to control feeding. In a crossover, 10 male cyclists performed 2- to 2.5-h interval training bouts on 3 consecutive evenings, ingesting either leucine-protein, high-carbohydrate nutrition (0.1/0.4/1.2/0.2 g·kg(-1)·h(-1); leucine, protein, carbohydrate, fat, respectively) or isocaloric control (0.06/1.6/0.2 g·kg(-1)·h(-1); protein, carbohydrate, fat, respectively) nutrition for 1.5 h postexercise. Throughout the experimental period diet was controlled, energy and macronutrient intake balanced, and protein intake clamped at 1.6 g·kg(-1)·day(-1). The alternate supplement was provided the next morning, thereby isolating the postexercise nutrition effect. Following 39 h of recovery, cyclists performed a repeat-sprint performance test. Postexercise leucine-protein ingestion improved mean sprint power by 2.5% (99% confidence limit, ±2.6%; p = 0.013) and reduced perceived overall tiredness during the sprints by 13% (90% confidence limit, ±9.2%), but perceptions of leg tiredness and soreness were unaffected. Before exercise, creatine-kinase concentration was lowered by 19% (90% confidence limits, ±18%), but lactate dehydrogenase and pressure-pain threshold were unaltered. There was a small reduction in anger (25% ± 18%), but other moods were unchanged. Plasma leucine (3-fold) and essential amino acid (47%) concentrations were elevated postexercise. Net nitrogen balance trended mildly negative in both conditions (mean ± SD: leucine-protein, -20 ± 46 mg·kg(-1) per 24 h; control, -25 ± 36 mg·kg(-1) per 24 h). The ingestion of a leucine-protein supplement along with other high-carbohydrate food following intense training on consecutive days enhances subsequent high-intensity endurance performance and may attenuate muscle membrane disruption in well-trained male cyclists.

    PMID:21609286[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  20. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    Just like HMB and metabolites, it may be more pronounced in novice trainees; but that doesn't mean higher doses - still constituting 25% of the amino acid pool + keeping in mind volume of distribution (most stuides do not and wrongly suggest that x grams is inconsequential when it may be ok for the novice athlete, but total grams of protein - keeping in mind 25% of amino pool with now heightened nitrogen balance requirements) be taken into effect.

    nt J Sports Physiol Perform. 2011 Mar;6(1):38-50.
    Daily L-leucine supplementation in novice trainees during a 12-week weight training program.
    Ispoglou T, King RF, Polman RC, Zanker C.
    SourceCarnegie Faculty of Sport and Education, Leeds Metropolitan University, Leeds, UK.

    Abstract
    PURPOSE: To investigate the effects of daily oral L-leucine ingestion on strength, bone mineral-free lean tissue mass (LTM) and fat mass (FM) of free living humans during a 12-wk resistance-training program.

    METHODS: Twenty-six initially untrained men (n = 13 per group) ingested either 4 g/d of L-leucine (leucine group: age 28.5 ± 8.2 y, body mass index 24.9 ± 4.2 kg/m2) or a corresponding amount of lactose (placebo group: age 28.2 ± 7.3 y, body mass index 24.9 ± 4.2 kg/m2). All participants trained under supervision twice per week following a prescribed resistance training program using eight standard exercise machines. Testing took place at baseline and at the end of the supplementation period. Strength on each exercise was assessed by five repetition maximum (5-RM), and body composition was assessed by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DXA).

    RESULTS: The leucine group demonstrated significantly higher gains in total 5-RM strength (sum of 5-RM in eight exercises) and 5-RM strength in five out of the eight exercises (P < .05). The percentage total 5-RM strength gains were 40.8% (± 7.8) and 31.0% (± 4.6) for the leucine and placebo groups respectively. Significant differences did not exist between groups in either total percentage LTM gains or total percentage FM losses (LTM: 2.9% ± 2.5 vs 2.0% ± 2.1, FM: 1.6% ± 15.6 vs 1.1% ± 7.6).

    CONCLUSION: These results suggest that 4 g/d of L-leucine supplementation may be used as a nutritional supplement to enhance strength performance during a 12-week resistance training program of initially untrained male participants.

    PMID:21487148[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  21. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    We could get into a study war I suppose, but the fact remains clear...it is very much so leucine (at 25% the total amino pool with positive nitrogen balance) that will impact body composition and performance parameters...we're just now being "allowed" to look more into it. There are some companies that already have abandoned BCAAs in lieu of higher leucine concentrations alone. I would be hard press to find the magic ratio purported in supplement ads; its just all that had been studied (and that's usually the argument for many things I suppose).


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  22. New Member
    AustrianOakJr's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  170 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    205
    Rep Power
    320

    Reputation

    Really interesting reading in this thread. Thanks for sharing. Can you explain more on why a 2:1:1 ratio is beneficial as opposed to an equal amount of all three BCAA's? Does it simply come down to the fact that this is the ratio found in skeletal muscle? If so, does that NECESSARILY mean that supplementing in this ratio is key?

    Also, forgive my ignorance.....but WHO are you? I see your avatar says "Rochester, NY"....my home town. Do you have an office out of this area?
    Sean Campbell
    Pro Natural Bodybuilder
    NRC Sponsored Athlete - Cabergolean.com
  23. Diamond Member
    mattrag's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  190 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Age
    29
    Posts
    10,027
    Rep Power
    335099

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    These studies are very interesting. I was wondering what anyone thought about completely dropping all other sources of protein and just taking Luecine/BCAAs/ ergogenic aminos throughout the day and just eating fruits, starches, and fats? Or even just mainly fruits and pure forms of fats to "control" your amino acid pool?
    RecoverBro ELITE
  24. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    Really interesting reading in this thread. Thanks for sharing. Can you explain more on why a 2:1:1 ratio is beneficial as opposed to an equal amount of all three BCAA's? Does it simply come down to the fact that this is the ratio found in skeletal muscle? If so, does that NECESSARILY mean that supplementing in this ratio is key?
    Well..."close enough" in the world of supplements (it's actually 1.8:1.2:1), but it seems to have stemmed from that. The first researched value was that which approximated skeletal muscle's ratio. Of course, we also know you won't "spontaneously combust" either with additional ingestion of say leucine, as some might have you believe. To me - absolutely not (as far as ratios are concerned); leucine should approximate about 25% of YOUR amino acid pool (which is the directed number that will lead to a positive nitrogen retention; this number is NOT static and the amount of total protein AND leucine will increase accordingly).


    Also, forgive my ignorance.....but WHO are you? I see your avatar says "Rochester, NY"....my home town. Do you have an office out of this area?
    "Who am I" is best found in another thread in this subforum. "Rochester, NY" is my home town and I do have an ancillary office there, albeit not one I practice medicine out of; that is about 6-6.5 hours away in Columbus, OH...My location has just not been updated since I joined the forum. Any questions about in-house services are probably best directed by PM.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  25. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    These studies are very interesting. I was wondering what anyone thought about completely dropping all other sources of protein and just taking Luecine/BCAAs/ ergogenic aminos throughout the day and just eating fruits, starches, and fats? Or even just mainly fruits and pure forms of fats to "control" your amino acid pool?
    The only issue I might have with complete free-form amino ingestion is the loss of peptide bonds which does aid protein assimilation.

    Other than that, I will state my view again: 25% of your amino acid pool should be leucine; your amino acid pool should be the number required to achieve a positive nitrogen balance (this number should be constantly changing requiring more of both leucine as well as total aminos)


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  26. New Member
    AustrianOakJr's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  170 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    205
    Rep Power
    320

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Well..."close enough" in the world of supplements (it's actually 1.8:1.2:1), but it seems to have stemmed from that. The first researched value was that which approximated skeletal muscle's ratio. Of course, we also know you won't "spontaneously combust" either with additional ingestion of say leucine, as some might have you believe. To me - absolutely not (as far as ratios are concerned); leucine should approximate about 25% of YOUR amino acid pool (which is the directed number that will lead to a positive nitrogen retention; this number is NOT static and the amount of total protein AND leucine will increase accordingly)._
    Thanks for the info. You seem to indicate that its worth the effort to try and calculate 25% of your amino pool. Is that simply a matter of taking my total protein for the day and doing the math? Or am I not understanding the concept? Say for instance I am taking in 200g of protein per day..... a noticeable increase in nitrogen balance / protein synthesis will take place with 50g of Leucine as opposed to just winging it with little attention to protein sources?

    Also, what are your thoughts on longer refractory periods to allow blood concentrations to fall to a baseline before "spiking" your amino intake in order to stimulate protein synthesis......as opposed to a more continuous supply of aminos throughout the day?

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    "Who am I" is best found in another thread in this subforum. "Rochester, NY" is my home town and I do have an ancillary office there, albeit not one I practice medicine out of; that is about 6-6.5 hours away in Columbus, OH...My location has just not been updated since I joined the forum. Any questions about in-house services are probably best directed by PM.

    D_[/QUOTE]

    I found your intro thread. Thanks.
    Sean Campbell
    Pro Natural Bodybuilder
    NRC Sponsored Athlete - Cabergolean.com
  27. Pro Virili Parte
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,867
    Rep Power
    2219906

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    We could get into a study war I suppose....
    not really a study war so much as none of the studies you posted demonstrate a lbm gain with leucine supplementation on its own. Again read my original post in this thread..

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    While it may look good on paper, time and time again leucine supplementation alone has failed to deliver an anabolic effect (an increase in LBM) in humans where BCAAs and EAAs have. Just about every nutrient will stimulate an insulin release. Insulin alone doesn't hinder fat loss. If it did, the only way to get lean would be to never eat. Maintaining good insulin sensitivity in muscle while keeping insulin levels stable for the majority of your day should be your goal.
    The only study you posted that showed a weight gain was PMID:20975109 and with that one it was whey+leucine not just leucine so other aminos were obviously present. It is easily possibly that the weight gain could have been simply due to the whey and nothing to do with the leucine being added.

    Stimulation of muscle anabolism by resistance exercise and ingestion of leucine plus protein.

    Leucine is known to stimulate muscle protein synthesis and anabolism. However, evidence for the efficacy of additional leucine to enhance the response of muscle anabolism to resistance exercise and protein ingestion is unclear. Thus, we investigated the response of net muscle protein balance to ingestion of additional leucine with protein in association with resistance exercise. Two groups of untrained subjects performed an intense bout of leg resistance exercise following ingestion of 1 of 2 drinks: flavored water (PL); or 16.6 g of whey protein + 3.4 g of leucine (W+L). Arteriovenous amino acid balance across the leg was measured to assess the anabolic response of muscle in each group. Arterial amino acid concentrations increased in response to ingestion of W+L. Amino acid concentrations peaked between 60 and 120 min after ingestion, and then declined to baseline values. Valine concentration decreased to levels significantly lower than baseline. Net balance of leucine, threonine, and phenylalanine did not change following PL ingestion, but increased and remained elevated above baseline for 90-120 min following W+L ingestion. Leucine (138 +/- 37 and -23 +/- 23 mg), phenylalanine (58 +/- 28 and -38 +/- 14 mg), and threonine (138 +/- 37 and -23 +/- 23 mg) uptake was greater for W+L than for PL over the 5.5 h following drink ingestion. Our results indicate that the whey protein plus leucine in healthy young volunteers results in an anabolic response in muscle that is not greater than the previously reported response to whey protein alone.

    PMID:19370045
    LBM gain with EAAs and WITHOUT exercise!
    Effect of amino acid supplementation on muscle mass, strength and physical function in elderly.

    Abstract

    BACKGROUND & AIMS:

    With advancing age there is a gradual decline in muscle mass, strength and function. The aim of this study was to determine if regular intake of a nutritional supplement containing essential amino acids (EAA)+arginine could reverse these responses in elderly subjects.
    METHODS:

    Twelve glucose intolerant subjects (67.0+/-5.6 (SD) years, 7 females, 5 males) ingested 11 g of EAA+arginine two times a day, between meals for 16 weeks. Diet and activity were not otherwise modified. Lean body mass (DEXA) was measured every fourth week. Maximal leg strength was tested and functional tests were performed at week 0, 8, 12, and 16.
    RESULTS:

    Lean body mass (LBM) increased during the study (p=0.038). At week 12, the average increase in LBM was 1.14+/-0.36 (SE) kg (p<0.05 vs baseline), whereas at week 16, the increase was 0.60+/-0.38 kg (NS vs baseline). The lower extremity strength measure score (sum of individual knee flexors and extensors' one repetition maximum, n=10) was 127.5+/-21.8 kg at baseline, and average increase during the study was 22.2+/-6.1% (p<0.001). Improvements were also observed in usual gait speed (p=0.002), timed 5-step test (p=0.007), and timed floor-transfer test (p=0.022).
    CONCLUSION:

    Supplementation of the diet with EAA+arginine improves lean body mass, strength and physical function compared to baseline values in glucose intolerant elderly individuals.

    PMID: 18294740
    and showing whey also stimulates MPS
    Rapid aminoacidemia enhances myofibrillar protein synthesis and anabolic intramuscular signaling responses after resistance exercise.

    Abstract
    BACKGROUND:

    Ingestion of whey or casein yields divergent patterns of aminoacidemia that influence whole-body and skeletal muscle myofibrillar protein synthesis (MPS) after exercise. Direct comparisons of the effects of contrasting absorption rates exhibited by these proteins are confounded by their differing amino acid contents.
    OBJECTIVE:

    Our objective was to determine the effect of divergent aminoacidemia by manipulating ingestion patterns of whey protein alone on MPS and anabolic signaling after resistance exercise.
    DESIGN:

    In separate trials, 8 healthy men consumed whey protein either as a single bolus (BOLUS; 25-g dose) or as repeated, small, "pulsed" drinks (PULSE; ten 2.5-g drinks every 20 min) to mimic a more slowly digested protein. MPS and phosphorylation of signaling proteins involved in protein synthesis were measured at rest and after resistance exercise.
    RESULTS:

    BOLUS increased blood essential amino acid (EAA) concentrations above those of PULSE (162% compared with 53%, P < 0.001) 60 min after exercise, whereas PULSE resulted in a smaller but sustained increase in aminoacidemia that remained elevated above BOLUS amounts later (180-220 min after exercise, P < 0.05). Despite an identical net area under the EAA curve, MPS was elevated to a greater extent after BOLUS than after PULSE early (1-3 h: 95% compared with 42%) and later (3-5 h: 193% compared with 121%) (both P < 0.05). There were greater changes in the phosphorylation of the Akt-mammalian target of rapamycin pathway after BOLUS than after PULSE.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    Rapid aminoacidemia in the postexercise period enhances MPS and anabolic signaling to a greater extent than an identical amount of protein fed in small pulses that mimic a more slowly digested protein. A pronounced peak aminoacidemia after exercise enhances protein synthesis. This trial was registered at clinicaltrials.gov as NCT01319513.

    PMID: 21795443
    And the other one that possibly showed potential, PMID:10418071, but this was a review & not a clinical trial.
    Even the reviewers themselves put said..

    Caution must be paid when interpreting the limited number of studies in this area since, in many studies, leucine has been supplemented as part of a mixture of BCAA
    So again, they were not looking at leucine by itself, the studies that show an increase in LBM are using BCAA or the leucine metabolite, HMB. There are zero human clinical trials that has shown an increase in LBM over control using only supplemental leucine.

    As for the rest of your studies you cited, yes ironically leucine supplementation does appear to improve exercise performance in some individuals BUT it does not result in increased LBM over control

    Long-term leucine supplementation does not increase muscle mass or strength in healthy elderly men.

    Abstract
    BACKGROUND:

    It has been reported that the blunted muscle protein synthetic response to food intake in the elderly can be normalized by increasing the leucine content of a meal.
    OBJECTIVE:

    The objective was to assess the effect of 3 mo of leucine supplementation on muscle mass and strength in healthy elderly men.
    DESIGN:

    Thirty healthy elderly men with a mean (+/-SEM) age of 71 +/- 4 y and body mass index (BMI; in kg/m(2)) of 26.1 +/- 0.5 were randomly assigned to either a placebo-supplemented (n = 15) or leucine-supplemented (n = 15) group. Leucine or placebo (2.5 g) was administered with each main meal during a 3-mo intervention period. Whole-body insulin sensitivity, muscle strength (one-repetition maximum), muscle mass (measured by computed tomography and dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry), myosin heavy chain isoform distribution, and plasma amino acid and lipid profiles were assessed before, during, and/or after the intervention period.
    RESULTS:

    No changes in skeletal muscle mass or strength were observed over time in either the leucine- or placebo-supplemented group. No improvements in indexes of whole-body insulin sensitivity (oral glucose insulin sensitivity index and the homeostasis model assessment of insulin resistance), blood glycated hemoglobin content, or the plasma lipid profile were observed. Conclusion: Long-term leucine supplementation (7.5 g/d) does not augment skeletal muscle mass or strength and does not improve glycemic control or the blood lipid profile in healthy elderly men. This trial was registered at clinicaltrials.gov as NCT00807508.

    PMID:19321567
    Daily L-leucine supplementation in novice trainees during a 12-week weight training program.

    Abstract
    PURPOSE:

    To investigate the effects of daily oral L-leucine ingestion on strength, bone mineral-free lean tissue mass (LTM) and fat mass (FM) of free living humans during a 12-wk resistance-training program.
    METHODS:

    Twenty-six initially untrained men (n = 13 per group) ingested either 4 g/d of L-leucine (leucine group: age 28.5 ± 8.2 y, body mass index 24.9 ± 4.2 kg/m2) or a corresponding amount of lactose (placebo group: age 28.2 ± 7.3 y, body mass index 24.9 ± 4.2 kg/m2). All participants trained under supervision twice per week following a prescribed resistance training program using eight standard exercise machines. Testing took place at baseline and at the end of the supplementation period. Strength on each exercise was assessed by five repetition maximum (5-RM), and body composition was assessed by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DXA).
    RESULTS:

    The leucine group demonstrated significantly higher gains in total 5-RM strength (sum of 5-RM in eight exercises) and 5-RM strength in five out of the eight exercises (P < .05). The percentage total 5-RM strength gains were 40.8% (± 7.8) and 31.0% (± 4.6) for the leucine and placebo groups respectively. Significant differences did not exist between groups in either total percentage LTM gains or total percentage FM losses (LTM: 2.9% ± 2.5 vs 2.0% ± 2.1, FM: 1.6% ± 15.6 vs 1.1% ± 7.6).
    CONCLUSION:

    These results suggest that 4 g/d of L-leucine supplementation may be used as a nutritional supplement to enhance strength performance during a 12-week resistance training program of initially untrained male participants.

    PMID: 21487148
    Long-term effects of leucine supplementation on body composition.

    Abstract

    PURPOSE OF REVIEW:

    Leucine does not only serve as a substrate for protein synthesis but is also recognized as a potent signal nutrient that regulates protein metabolism. Accordingly, leucine supplementation has been suggested to develop muscle mass or prevent protein loss in several conditions characterized by muscle protein wasting. In the present review, we reported the recent results related to the effect of dietary leucine or leucine-rich amino acid mixture and proteins on whole body composition.
    RECENT FINDINGS:

    Although recent studies corroborate that increasing plasma leucine concentration generally induces an increase in muscle protein synthesis, long-term dietary leucine supplementation has been poorly investigated. Chronic free leucine supplementation alone did not improve lean body or muscle mass during resistance training or in elderly, whereas it was able to limit the weight loss induced by malnutrition. Contradictory data were also reported concerning the effect of leucine supplementation for weight management in obese patients. Leucine-rich amino acid mixture or proteins appeared more efficient than leucine alone to improve muscle mass and performance, suggesting the efficacy of leucine depends nevertheless on the presence of other amino acids.
    SUMMARY:

    Until now, there is no evidence that chronic leucine supplementation is efficient in promoting muscle mass or preventing protein loss during catabolic states. Further studies are required to determine the duration and nutritional conditions of long-term leucine supplementation and to establish whether such nutritional interventions can help to prevent or treat muscle loss in various pathological or physiological conditions.

    PMID: 20110810
    In hindsight I may have skimmed through your post too quickly and ended up with the impression what you were advocating is that leucine supplementation is superior to BCAA supplementation. If this isnt what you were saying than I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

    Now if you are suggesting that with adequate protein intake, isoleucine and valine aren't really needed, because you're getting adequate quantities already via dietary intake then shouldn't supplemental leucine with protein would show greater effects?

    It appears it doesn't in older men
    Co-ingestion of leucine with protein does not further augment post-exercise muscle protein synthesis rates in elderly men.

    Abstract

    Leucine has been suggested to have the potential to modulate muscle protein metabolism by increasing muscle protein synthesis. The objective of this study was to investigate the surplus value of the co-ingestion of free leucine with protein hydrolysate and carbohydrate following physical activity in elderly men. Eight elderly men (mean age 73 +/- 1 years) were randomly assigned to two cross-over treatments consuming either carbohydrate and protein hydrolysate (CHO+PRO) or carbohydrate, protein hydrolysate with additional leucine (CHO+PRO+leu) after performing 30 min of standardized physical activity. Primed, continuous infusions with L-[ring-(13)C(6)]phenylalanine and L-[ring-(2)H(2)]tyrosine were applied, and blood and muscle samples were collected to assess whole-body protein turnover as well as protein fractional synthetic rate in the vastus lateralis muscle over a 6 h period. Whole-body protein breakdown and synthesis rates were not different between treatments. Phenylalanine oxidation rates were significantly lower in the CHO+PRO+leu v. CHO+PRO treatment. As a result, whole-body protein balance was significantly greater in the CHO+PRO+leu compared to the CHO+PRO treatment (23.8 (SEM 0.3) v. 23.2 (SEM 0.3) micromol/kg per h, respectively; P < 0.05). Mixed muscle fractional synthetic rate averaged 0.081 (SEM 0.003) and 0.082 (SEM 0.006) %/h in the CHO+PRO+leu and CHO+PRO treatment, respectively (NS). Co-ingestion of leucine with carbohydrate and protein following physical activity does not further elevate muscle protein fractional synthetic rate in elderly men when ample protein is ingested.

    PMID: 17697406
    but it appears to be a different story with younger men..

    Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects.

    Abstract

    The present study was designed to determine postexercise muscle protein synthesis and whole body protein balance following the combined ingestion of carbohydrate with or without protein and/or free leucine. Eight male subjects were randomly assigned to three trials in which they consumed drinks containing either carbohydrate (CHO), carbohydrate and protein (CHO+PRO), or carbohydrate, protein, and free leucine (CHO+PRO+Leu) following 45 min of resistance exercise. A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine was applied, with blood samples and muscle biopsies collected to assess fractional synthetic rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle as well as whole body protein turnover during 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin response was higher in the CHO+PRO+Leu compared with the CHO and CHO+PRO trials (+240 +/- 19% and +77 +/- 11%, respectively, P < 0.05). Whole body protein breakdown rates were lower, and whole body protein synthesis rates were higher, in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials compared with the CHO trial (P < 0.05). Addition of leucine in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial resulted in a lower protein oxidation rate compared with the CHO+PRO trial. Protein balance was negative during recovery in the CHO trial but positive in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials. In the CHO+PRO+Leu trial, whole body net protein balance was significantly greater compared with values observed in the CHO+PRO and CHO trials (P < 0.05). Mixed muscle FSR, measured over a 6-h period of postexercise recovery, was significantly greater in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial compared with the CHO trial (0.095 +/- 0.006 vs. 0.061 +/- 0.008%/h, respectively, P < 0.05), with intermediate values observed in the CHO+PRO trial (0.0820 +/- 0.0104%/h). We conclude that coingestion of protein and leucine stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole body protein balance compared with the intake of carbohydrate only.

    PMID: 15562251
    and then there is this that shows there shouldn't be a different with age

    Co-ingestion of protein and leucine stimulates muscle protein synthesis rates to the same extent in young and elderly lean men.

    Abstract
    BACKGROUND:

    The progressive loss of skeletal muscle mass with aging is attributed to a disruption in the regulation of skeletal muscle protein turnover.
    OBJECTIVE:

    We investigated the effects on whole-body protein balance and mixed-muscle protein synthesis rates of the ingestion of carbohydrate with or without protein and free leucine after simulated activities of daily living.
    DESIGN:

    Eight elderly (75 +/- 1 y) and 8 young (20 +/- 1 y) lean men were randomly assigned to 2 crossover experiments in which they consumed either carbohydrate (CHO) or carbohydrate plus protein and free leucine (CHO+Pro+Leu) after performing 30 min of standardized activities of daily living. Primed, continuous infusions with L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine and L-[ring-2H2]tyrosine were applied, and blood and muscle samples were collected to assess whole-body protein turnover and the protein fractional synthetic rate in the vastus lateralis muscle over a 6-h period.
    RESULTS:

    Whole-body phenylalanine and tyrosine flux were significantly higher in the young than in the elderly men (P < 0.01). Protein balance was negative in the CHO experiment but positive in the CHO+Pro+Leu experiment in both groups. Mixed-muscle protein synthesis rates were significantly greater in the CHO+Pro+Leu than in the CHO experiment in both the young (0.082 +/- 0.005%/h and 0.060 +/- 0.005%/h, respectively; P < 0.01) and the elderly (0.072 +/- 0.006%/h and 0.043 +/- 0.003%/h, respectively; P < 0.01) subjects, with no significant differences between groups.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    Co-ingestion of protein and leucine with carbohydrate after activities of daily living improves whole-body protein balance, and the increase in muscle protein synthesis rates is not significantly different between lean young and elderly men.

    PMID: 16960178
    So does this show that isoleucine and valine have to be present in free form for leucine to be effective?
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  28. Pro Virili Parte
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,867
    Rep Power
    2219906

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    And to add to the confusion
    From this we see that elderly need a higher leucine threshold
    A high proportion of leucine is required for optimal stimulation of the rate of muscle protein synthesis by essential amino acids in the elderly.

    Abstract

    This study was designed to evaluate the effects of enriching an essential amino acid (EAA) mixture with leucine on muscle protein metabolism in elderly and young individuals. Four (2 elderly and 2 young) groups were studied before and after ingestion of 6.7 g of EAAs. EAAs were based on the composition of whey protein [26% leucine (26% Leu)] or were enriched in leucine [41% leucine (41% Leu)]. A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine was used together with vastus lateralis muscle biopsies and leg arteriovenous blood samples for the determinations of fractional synthetic rate (FSR) and balance of muscle protein. FSR increased following amino acid ingestion in both the 26% (basal: 0.048 +/- 0.005%/h; post-EAA: 0.063 +/- 0.007%/h) and the 41% (basal: 0.036 +/- 0.004%/h; post-EAA: 0.051 +/- 0.007%/h) Leu young groups (P < 0.05). In contrast, in the elderly, FSR did not increase following ingestion of 26% Leu EAA (basal: 0.044 +/- 0.003%/h; post-EAA: 0.049 +/- 0.006%/h; P > 0.05) but did increase following ingestion of 41% Leu EAA (basal: 0.038 +/- 0.007%/h; post-EAA: 0.056 +/- 0.008%/h; P < 0.05). Similar to the FSR responses, the mean response of muscle phenylalanine net balance, a reflection of muscle protein balance, was improved (P < 0.05) in all groups, with the exception of the 26% Leu elderly group. We conclude that increasing the proportion of leucine in a mixture of EAA can reverse an attenuated response of muscle protein synthesis in elderly but does not result in further stimulation of muscle protein synthesis in young subjects.

    PMID: 16507602
    So adding leucine to ample amounts of whey protein doesn't do anything extra for increasing MPS in elderly, than why would it in younger people?

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    There are some companies that already have abandoned BCAAs in lieu of higher leucine concentrations alone. I would be hard press to find the magic ratio purported in supplement ads; its just all that had been studied (and that's usually the argument for many things I suppose).


    D_
    I do remember reading something somewhere before that with the way leucine is metabolized the 2:1:1 ratio is the best otherwise it creates an imbalance. These 4:1:1 and 8:1:1's and whatever other ridiculous blends were only created because leucine used to be the cheapest of the 3 amino's. Since then it has doubled and almost tripled in price. I doubt you will see much more of these blends and it will start to trend back to the 2:1:1 ratio again. There is a reason there is decades of research on 2:1:1 and not the other blends. If extra leucine was superior in anyway why haven't these companies using this version put any money behind it to prove it?

    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Of course, we also know you won't "spontaneously combust" either with additional ingestion of say leucine, as some might have you believe.

    D_
    I hope this isnt in reference to me?

    Again I apologize if I misread what your original posting was about. My intention isnt to challenge your authority or discredit you by any means but to just engage in a debate/conversation so that myself and everyone else on the board can learn a thing or two I have no clue who you are but from what I gather from the forum title you are a doctor and obviously have waaay more knowledge than I do, being I am just a student. I acknowledge and recognize your knowledge on the subject but this doesnt mean I have to agree with you. I dont believe leucine alone to be superior to BCAAs or EAAs in regards to lbm gains. There just isnt any evidence to support this, just theory.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  29. Pro Virili Parte
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,867
    Rep Power
    2219906

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Now this I find EXTREMELY interesting...

    Leucine supplementation and serum amino acids, testosterone, cortisol and growth hormone in male power athletes during training.


    OBJECTIVE: The purpose of the present study was to examine the effects of leucine supplementation on the amino acid and hormone profile during training. EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN: The study was a randomised double-blind cross-over study during 10 weeks of training. SETTING: The study occurred during a sport training period. PARTICIPANTS: Twenty adult male track and field power athletes finished the study. INTERVENTIONS: The subjects were given leucine (50.0 +/- 3.3 mg/ kg body weight per day) or placebo tablets. MEASUREMENTS: The measurements were carried out before, in the middle of, and after 10 weeks. RESULTS: The serum leucine concentration decreased significantly (p < 0.05) in the placebo group, by 20.1% (from 189 +/- 45 to 151 +/- 21 mumol/l) during the first 5 weeks, but not during the second 5 weeks (180 +/- 61 vs 154 +/- 23 mumol/l). When leucine was taken there were no changes in the serum leucine concentration. The total serum amino acid pool decreased significantly (p < 0.01) in all subjects, by 21.2% during the 10-week training period. The decrease occurred mostly during the first 5 weeks. Glutamine decreased (37.1%; p < 0.01) most of the single amino acids. The serum testosterone concentration increased by 20.7% (p < 0.05) and the serum cortisol concentration by 8.0% (p < 0.05) in all subjects during the first 5 weeks. During the second 5 weeks the testosterone concentration decreased by 19.0% (p < 0.001). CONCLUSIONS: The present findings indicate that on a daily protein intake of 1.26 g/kg body weight the serum concentrations of amino acids are lowered considerably and earlier than the decrease in the serum testosterone concentration during the training season in adult male power athletes. The leucine supplementation of 50 mg/kg body weight per day appears to prevent the decrease in the serum leucine concentration during intensive training.

    PMID: 9239992
    Thoughts on this one?
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  30. Professional Member
    SweetLou321's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  188 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    3,583
    Rep Power
    115441

    Reputation Reputation Reputation

    subd
  31. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    Phew; ok...this may take some time to adequately respond to, but I will try and take each post in turn as I am able throughout the weekend.

    A couple of things from the start...there's NO MONEY in supplements that would be worth supporting leucine when no one can have a patent on it. No one is going to fund a study where there's no money to be made in it. We struggle with this in discussion at each year's ISSN meeting because it is not that this topic (leucine vs. BCAA vs. EAA) doesn't come up.

    Also - when studies show that for the older crowds, things don't work...but for the younger, they do....ask yourself why. Age-related hormonal attenuation and relative sarcopenia cannot be dismissed in your study populace (n=8) in one of them. I would presume you and the study authors have also accounted for discrepencies in testosterone levels as a truly confounding variable. I admittedly have to read all of the full studies you have reported which is why it will take time to truly argue for or against the positions you bring up.

    Leucine, at 25% your total amino acid pool - has very much so been supported by the literature. Let me ask if you read simply the authors' conclusions or examined the studies in whole that I presented drawing your own. I ask this because - I love the interaction, BUT want to be sure we critically examining things appropriately if an educated debate is to be had. I don't post abstracts to highlight the data presented by authors in them as much as I do as a second step from citation where you can read the study as a whole on your own and drawn conclusion. The reason I don't post the entire study in the thread is because it would just be far too long a read and a LOT would get lost in translation.



    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  32. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    There was an interesting review article about it in 2010...

    Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2010 May;13(3):265-70.
    Long-term effects of leucine supplementation on body composition.

    Balage M, Dardevet D.
    Source

    INRA, UMR 1019 Nutrition Humaine, Saint Genès Champanelle, France.

    Abstract

    PURPOSE OF REVIEW:

    Leucine does not only serve as a substrate for protein synthesis but is also recognized as a potent signal nutrient that regulates protein metabolism. Accordingly, leucine supplementation has been suggested to develop muscle mass or prevent protein loss in several conditions characterized by muscle protein wasting. In the present review, we reported the recent results related to the effect of dietary leucine or leucine-rich amino acid mixture and proteins on whole body composition.
    RECENT FINDINGS:

    Although recent studies corroborate that increasing plasma leucine concentration generally induces an increase in muscle protein synthesis, long-term dietary leucine supplementation has been poorly investigated. Chronic free leucine supplementation alone did not improve lean body or muscle mass during resistance training or in elderly, whereas it was able to limit the weight loss induced by malnutrition. Contradictory data were also reported concerning the effect of leucine supplementation for weight management in obese patients. Leucine-rich amino acid mixture or proteins appeared more efficient than leucine alone to improve muscle mass and performance, suggesting the efficacy of leucine depends nevertheless on the presence of other amino acids.
    SUMMARY:

    Until now, there is no evidence that chronic leucine supplementation is efficient in promoting muscle mass or preventing protein loss during catabolic states. Further studies are required to determine the duration and nutritional conditions of long-term leucine supplementation and to establish whether such nutritional interventions can help to prevent or treat muscle loss in various pathological or physiological conditions.

    PMID:20110810[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


    Again, eliminate elderly data when compared to young...why - because you're hormonally compromised. The review does mention the ability of leucine to limit the effects of weight loss induced by malnutrition. For this crowd, understand when people use BCAAs the most...during weight loss (i.e. - malnutrition) states. I understand it is difficult to look at all the information with claims produced by authors that are mildly erroneous when observing the data sets as a whole. It clearly shows that leucine when 25% the amino pool is the key. I don't think any BCAAs need to be supplemented in adults on a high-protein diet....EXCEPT leucine making certain it accounts for whatever 25% of your total amino pool is. Otherwise, I vote to dump leucine as well. That is a big difference, I understand, after reading your responses to me saying leucine is superior to BCAAs, but I still think it is because if anything needs to be "supplemented" - then it's that and not valine and isoleucine.

    Look at the contradictory data for obesity and leucine; see anything? Diabetics (read: insulin resistance states) are the ones who see no body composition effects. Is that surprising to anyone? Again, it becomes a hormonal debate.

    Elderly = low testosterone
    Diabetics = insulin resistance

    And as such, many authors dismiss the "contradictory" data - the young (higher testosterone) and the non-diabetic (insulin sensitive).


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  33. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    And if you can...take a peak at this article (the full article, not the abstract I post)...

    J Med Food. 2008 Dec;11(4):606-9.
    Leucine for retention of lean mass on a hypocaloric diet.

    Jitomir J, Willoughby DS.
    Source

    Exercise and Biochemical Nutrition Laboratory, Department of Health, Human Performance, Recreation, Baylor University, Waco, Texas 76798-7313, USA. Jean_Jitomir@baylor.edu

    Abstract

    As obesity rates continue to climb, there is a pressing need for novel weight loss techniques. However, the energy-restricted diets recommended for weight loss typically result in significant amounts of lean tissue loss, in addition to the desired body fat loss. Leucine, a supported anticatabolic agent, has shown promise in research at many levels. First, leucine is known to stimulate the mammalian target of rapamycin pathway, which initiates translation and protein synthesis in muscle cells. Furthermore, leucine may help to regulate blood glucose levels by promoting gluconeogenesis. Finally, several recent studies provide evidence that leucine aids in the retention of lean mass in a hypocaloric state. The aim of this paper is to review relevant leucine research in the three areas described and assess its potential as supplement for obese individuals.

    PMID:19053849[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  34. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    Oh, and I could post a lot of rat studies, but you dismiss them unfortunately. I understand that translation sometimes DOES, in fact, lag. HOWEVER, in the same breathe, understand too that humans are harder to eliminate confounding variables with. When rat studies are overwhelmingly positive; one can assume that either (A) the study simply must not translate to humans -OR- (B) somehow the humans have managed to negate the positive effects.

    Either way, I would rather not get into nomenclature per se, so I addressed the rationale behind WHY solo monotherapy leucine studies are lagging, but at the same time...I know of 7 that are on-going because they have finally been given the go, but I explained the history already in this thread so I won't regress.

    I think discussion in this way could only enhance how people aptly supplement their bodies, so I am all for it.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  35. Elite Member
    RickRock13's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    9,352
    Rep Power
    989351

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Ton of great discussion in here.....subd
    Recoverbro Elite
    "This is what we've been working on"
  36. Elite Member
    RickRock13's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    9,352
    Rep Power
    989351

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    There has been much discussion and debate over whether BCAA supplementation before fasted cardio is negative towards reaping the additional fat loss benefits of fasted training. What are your thoughts on this?
    Recoverbro Elite
    "This is what we've been working on"
  37. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    Unsure if I posted this one previously, but this is a good illustration of what adding more leucine to the normal EAA amino acid pool - in this one, its a bit higher than 25% (its 35%); the only issue I have is the comparison was 19% leucine; however, it should be noted that isoleucine and valine doses were actually LESS in the EAA + Leucine combo and still the net yeild on a MPS scale was greater.


    Am J Clin Nutr.
    2011 Sep;94(3):809-18. Epub 2011 Jul 20.
    Leucine-enriched essential amino acid supplementation during moderate steady state exercise enhances postexercise muscle protein synthesis.

    Pasiakos SM, McClung HL, McClung JP, Margolis LM, Andersen NE, Cloutier GJ, Pikosky MA, Rood JC, Fielding RA, Young AJ.
    Source

    Military Nutrition Division, US Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine, Natick, MA, USA. stefan.pasiakos@us.army.mil

    Abstract

    BACKGROUND:

    The effects of essential amino acid (EAA) supplementation during moderate steady state (ie, endurance) exercise on postexercise skeletal muscle metabolism are not well described, and the potential role of supplemental leucine on muscle protein synthesis (MPS) and associated molecular responses remains to be elucidated.
    OBJECTIVE:

    This randomized crossover study examined whether EAA supplementation with 2 different concentrations of leucine affected post-steady state exercise MPS, whole-body protein turnover, and mammalian target of rapamycin 1 (mTORC1) intracellular signaling.
    DESIGN:

    Eight adults completed 2 separate bouts of cycle ergometry [60 min, 60% VO(2)peak (peak oxygen uptake)]. Isonitrogenous (10 g EAA) drinks with different leucine contents [leucine-enriched (l)-EAA, 3.5 g leucine; EAA, 1.87 g leucine] were consumed during exercise. MPS and whole-body protein turnover were determined by using primed continuous infusions of [(2)H(5)]phenylalanine and [1-(13)C]leucine. Multiplex and immunoblot analyses were used to quantify mTORC1 signaling.
    RESULTS:

    MPS was 33% greater (P < 0.05) after consumption of L-EAA (0.08 ± 0.01%/h) than after consumption of EAA (0.06 ± 0.01%/h). Whole-body protein breakdown and synthesis were lower (P < 0.05) and oxidation was greater (P < 0.05) after consumption of L-EAA than after consumption of EAA. Regardless of dietary treatment, multiplex analysis indicated that Akt and mammalian target of rapamycin phosphorylation were increased (P < 0.05) 30 min after exercise. Immunoblot analysis indicated that phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 and extracellular-signal regulated protein kinase increased (P < 0.05) and phosphorylation of eukaryotic elongation factor 2 decreased (P < 0.05) after exercise but was not affected by dietary treatment.
    CONCLUSION:

    These findings suggest that increasing the concentration of leucine in an EAA supplement consumed during steady state exercise elicits a greater MPS response during recovery. This trial is registered at clinicaltrials.gov as NCT01366924.

    PMID:21775557[PubMed - in process]


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  38. Featured Author
    dinoiii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    4094

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by RickRock13 View Post
    There has been much discussion and debate over whether BCAA supplementation before fasted cardio is negative towards reaping the additional fat loss benefits of fasted training. What are your thoughts on this?
    My thoughts are simple (if you combine some info I posted in the "Sleep Thread," you'll see that BCAAs are very insulinomimetic secondary to their gluconeogenic offering). That said, you could blunt the quoted "advantage" (although I don't believe truly "fasted" - meaning after the night of famine (i.e. - controlled catabolic period) cardio is the best for body comp, but that is an inherently different rationale and one of positive nitrogen balance). Like I have said in this thread, in order to reap rewards from supplementation of either BCAAs or more importantly leucine; not only should it comprise 25% of your total amino pool, but it should also be enough to achieve a positive nitrogen balance if muscle gain is to be attained. If glycogen depletion is intended (i.e. - the rationale often cited for "fasted" cardio); it's probably best to leave them out (or another mechanism should be sought because it will hamper attainment of why you're doing the fasted cardio in the first place).

    My own opinion: If embarking on fat loss, you will likely see a better response with positive nitrogen balance + periods of TIGHTLY CONTROLLED catabolism (again - keep in mind fat "loss" is a catabolic process; you should NOT be anabolic 24-hours a day if you are a physique athlete looking to get the most out of attaining the shortest distance between where you are now and your physique goals). The tightly controlled catabolism extends FAR TOO LONG in most cases of the "fasted" session.

    In other words, "fasted" cardio while once en vogue, has never panned out! Ingest an amino solution containing at least 25% leucine upon rising. Embark in any desired training states later on. IF it comes down to not being able to do cardio in the morning; then throw your session at the end of your weight traininig routine (but keep in mind that total length of time spent in the gym also impacts hormones, et al...so you should probably shave off equal time from your lifting session that you want to shift toward cardio). Then still, keep in mind "intensity" is defined differently on the cardio (aerobic) scale from resistance (anaerobic) scale. This is actually a very involved process and I think people try to simplify it too much. It's not a bad idea for simplification as people will tend to remain more compliant, but don't do it to a level where you sacrifice the overriding scientific consensus.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
  39. New Member
    Flabby's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    104
    Rep Power
    152

    Reputation

    So trying to take practical advice from this, would you advise a protocol of mixing 5g leucine and 10g of whey as opposed to typical BCAA mixes or straight whey? I'm thinking this could be superior both in terms of effectiveness and budget...
  40. New Member
    Flabby's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    104
    Rep Power
    152

    Reputation

    No thoughts on my whey plus leucine idea?
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. UFC 78 discussion thread
    By jas123 in forum MMA
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 11-22-2007, 03:47 AM
  2. UFN discussion thread
    By jas123 in forum MMA
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 01-28-2007, 11:47 AM
  3. UFN discussion thread
    By jas123 in forum MMA
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 12-16-2006, 09:51 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in