Low T, Looking for advise. T boosters vs TRT.

[chlorella]

History: I think I've been on the lower side of the normal range my entire life. Hard gainer, thin, started loosing my hair in my teens, no interest in sprots, ect. In my early 20s I had a neck injury that left me in a lot of pain and unable to sleep well. I was on a lot of different pain/nerve meds, including opiates. Looking back, I now know my T levels were extremely low at that time. Been off the meds for ~8 years now, but still in a lot of pain and not sleeping well. I also have problems with both legs and all of my injuries prevent me from getting a serious T raising workout. I've felt terrible for years now (still not sleeping well) and finally got my T level tested at age 36. The first test showed 164. I started consuming more calories to raise my levels and the 2nd test was ~270. Continued to force feed and my 3rd test was ~350. Can't continue this much longer b/c the extra calories are not being used to build extra muscle My levels are still too low, can feel it and it doesn't feel good. Over the past 5-6 years I've tried small doses of the popular T boosters, like DTHC, Preform, Activate Extreme and IGF2. They did allow me to feel better, but I don't have a clue what my actual levels were. I took very few boosters over this winter, stopping completely ~4 months ago. I was hoping that maybe I'd feel better after a few months of not taking anything. I'm at a point where I need to do something, I need T boosting herbs OR TRT. I am reading good stuff about Tonkat Ali and I think I respond well to DTHC, but I'm not sure if I should even mess around with the herbal stuff (with lab work this time) or go straight for TRT? Any advise?

 

[usealittle]

Stop takin in the extra calories and tell you doc you want to be put on trt.

 

[chlorella]

He wanted me to start TRT right away after the first test result 164. I didn't start yet because I believe it's a major life changing decision and once started, it'd probably be for life. I wanted to be 100% sure it's the right decision. I also don't like the idea of being dependent on a doctor and a prescription for the rest of my life. I'm not sure what to do (I'm thinking indecisiveness is a symptom of low T)... I'm wondering if I'd sleep better with normal levels... I'm wondering if herbs can actually increase my levels the 2-4 X that are needed to get me into the normal range.

 

[kisaj]

You need to get to the bottom of this before starting anything. Yes, Tongkat can help and is proven to increase free test. So can boron and vitamin D. But, you need to get full labs done to start as a baseline. Then look at lifestyle factors. If you truly do need to go on TRT after making sure, it is life changing.

 

[chlorella]

First doc I went to did the usual lab work (cbc auto diff, cmp, lipid panel, ths, ua micro). All came back normal (lymph% was low, maybe due to a recent cortisone shot). He said he was not going to test for T based on how I look. I knew something was not right so I went to a different doc. He tested pth, tsh, ca, free t3, b 12, testosterone, rheumatoid factor, esr, c reactive protein, cortisol, anti nuclear antibody, vit d, cyclic citurullinated peptide antibody). All were within normal range except the T was 164. He wanted me to start TRT. I went back to the original Dr. for a second opinion and asked for any additional bloodwork that would be useful. He said to start the TRT and ordered a prolactin test, which came back normal. I get ~2mg of boron in my multi vit (1/2 dose mvp/zmk). Should I ask for something specific like a "full hormone test"? I'm not really sure what to ask for.

 

[kisaj]

You may be a candidate for TRT and your age could support that. I would ask for a referral to an endo for a specialist opinion, but that is me. If you do need to be on, you'll love it. I don't ever think about this being for life because I wouldn't want to stop anyway.

 

[chlorella]

I think the herbal test boosters do more than just boost T. Like there's a stimulant effect or it affects the CNS. I think I'm primarily interested just the T boost and not in any additional effects. What does tonkat ali feel like? Is it stimulating beyond what TRT would feel like? I've never tried tonkat ali by it's self.

 

[kisaj]

If you have low test, nothing is going to feel like TRT. We are talking 400-500% increases while still staying in physiological levels

In general, test boosters don't do much to actually increase test levels. The blends or herbs that are used can provide an uplifting feeling to mimic an actual test boost and may provide a small increase. At most you could probably expect to see maybe a 20-30% increase. That is ok if you are already high mid range or better, but not much if you are running on the lower side.

That all being said, you can increase the amount of test that is available to use with some herbs- tongkat being one of them that is especially effective. This is important regardless of your total test levels and can give a nice boost in the gym and in the libido/alpha feeling department.

 

[chlorella]

7-2-14 T 164
7-15-14 T 270
7-30-14 T 346
9-3-14 T 472

Free test 92 pg/ml range (46-224)
LH 8.3 Miu/ml range (2-18)
FSH 6.1 Miu/ml range (1.6-18.1)
Estradiol 18 pg/ml range (7.6-42.6)
DHEA 404 ug/dl range (35-570)

 

[chlorella]

Here's the results of new labs and T levels over time. They're trending up. Still too low though.

 

[kenpoengineer]

Here's the results of new labs and T levels over time. They're trending up. Still too low though.

Are you recovering from running any anabolics? This test trending up indicates you are recovering from a cycle or something.

 

[chlorella]

I've never taken anabolics. How should I cycle tongkat ali for possible long-term use? My goals are boosting T for general health/wellbeing and keeping T levels steady.

 

[rixrix]

s.

I waited far too long. I was having problems after some bowel surgery and went to the urologist and he actually tested for it but missed it. It wasn't until 5 years later when I was on test that I looked back in my (now online) patient history and saw that I had a lot of missed signals. I kicked myself later.

So my advice to you is simple:
1. Try a clomid/HCG restart. You can find HCG and Clomid from a variety of grey market sources. (HCG is a little harder to find now that it is considered a controlled substance in some, but not all states; it is considered a 'performance enhancing' drug). If this works, good for you, you can keep on the clomid and avoid the whole TRT thing.
2. That probably won't work in your case. Then you go to a MAJOR UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER and make an appointment with an endo. You want the cutting edge, which means either the massively expensive anti-aging docs in NY/SF/LA/MIA or university professors.

 

[HondaV65]

s.
So my advice to you is simple:
1. Try a clomid/HCG restart. You can find HCG and Clomid from a variety of grey market sources. (HCG is a little harder to find now that it is considered a controlled substance in some, but not all states; it is considered a 'performance enhancing' drug). If this works, good for you, you can keep on the clomid and avoid the whole TRT thing.

How does HCG facilitate a restart? It's absolutely counterproductive.

HCG is basically a replacement for LH, which is the substance that your pituitary gland sends to your testicals to tell them to produce test. Here at the problems ...

1. Once HCG raises test levels, your pituitary SHUTS DOWN and tells your nuts NOT to produce test. You'll still keep producing it as long as you're on HCG - but you just shut down one of the most important parts of your HPTA (your pituitary). Once you go off HCG - your test levels will dive until the pituitary comes back online and starts producing LH again.

HCG shuts down the HPTA - do not be fooled by the test levels. Sure, your balls are going gangbuster - but you can have balls that produce all the test in the world and they'll produce ZERO without an LH signal from the pituitary.

2. HCG isn't "LH" ... it's a close approximation but it's not the real article. Because it's not - there are some who suggest that your nuts could become insensitive to LH by using it. Don't know if I agree with this ... but.

HCG is a great thing to use when you're on an anabolic and you're shutdown already. At least it keeps the nuts up and running and, theoretically - fired up to quickly produce your own test once you're off the anabolic and the pituitary restarts.

 

[chlorella]

I'm still looking for advice on how to take Tongkat for long term use. The goal is stable and healthy T levels. Is 5 days off, 2 on the best?

 

[kisaj]

Most people cycle 5/2 or 4/3. I prefer 4/3.

 

[chlorella]

I took TA 1:200 extract 2 caps/day 300mg for 1 month.
It was cycled 5 days on 2 off.
This was half the recommended dose on the bottle.

Testosterone went from 472 to 484. (range 249 to 836)
Free test went from 92 to 81 (range 46 to 224)

I was hoping for more of an increase.

 

[kisaj]

What brand?

 

[chlorella]

Sumatra Pasak Bumi
I went to the resellers and ordered from "Premium Tongkat Cheap"

It's not VERY bitter like I've read about.

 

[kisaj]

LOL, man.

First off, there is so much garbage TA out there it isn't even funny. That is why I have been through so many brands over the years because it took that long of a search or I would have stuck with one brand. I found one that I took for the last almost 2 years until I tried the TA that is in Viron. Hands down an equal or better for a 1/3 of the cost. I run labs as I am on TRT and it proves what I felt.

 

[chlorella]

That brand seems to get the best reviews online.
It would be interesting to try Viron and see what happens.
I didn't try it B/C Nutra Planet was out of stock last month and it's still out of stock.

Can you tell me where is the best place to order Viron form when NP doesn't have it?

 

[chlorella]

The Dr. reviewed my blood work. He seem to think the TA is working since T levels went up a little bit. He mentioned that herbals can take a while to start working. He suggested taking the full dose of 4 caps/day.

I just got some Viron. Label says take 1 cap/day.
Is this the best way to take it considering my Test levels are below 500?
Would 2x/day be more effective?

Not sure yet if I'm going to up the dose of the original TA or start the Viron.

 

[kisaj]

Start at 1 cap and access from there. Some people getting a little racy on 2.

 

[Polara]

Hello. I'm 54 yrs old, 190lb, workout 3 times a week, not crazy, just cardio and some weights just to stay in shape. I work outside mostly. I am hoping someone can help me get my mojo back. At 50 I noticed things changing, losing erections, night sweats, no more morning wood and I have had chronic insomnia for about 3 years. I have gone to see few Drs - all they do is give u cialias or Viagra prescriptions. I know sleep is so important but I'm so sure something is not right causing the sleep issues. I've tried everything, believe me, everything!! The last thing that worked pretty good for sleep was taurine (amino). I got 10 days of great sleep. My last blood work went like this - testPM 6.8 nmol. (Range 8-10 ). Dheas 4.6umol/L, estradiol 94 pmol/L. Progesterone .7nmol/L, T3 free 4.9pmol/L. My cholesterol was ok .This blood work was done July 2014. Could clomid or stinging nettle help. Thanks