aromasin dosing for trt?

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    aromasin dosing for trt?


    I am currently on a trt dose of testosterone cyp of 200mg every 6 days. I am going to increase my dose to 300mg every 6 days for about 8 weeks in hopes if putting on some lean mass. I haven't taken an AI other than PES Erase before but I just picked up some liquid aromasin and was wondering what a good starting dose would be to keep estrogen in check but not crush it. I was thinking 12.5mg every other day or every 3 days thoughts?

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    EOD is a good starting point. Short half-life (27 hours) More typical dosing is 12.5 per day but you do not want to kill all your E and E2.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post
    EOD is a good starting point. Short half-life (27 hours) More typical dosing is 12.5 per day but you do not want to kill all your E and E2.
    Thanks for the response! I agree. I didn't realize the half life was only a day so i guess it would probably make thw most sense to do it eod.
    Doesn't aromasin actually kinda last a bit longer that the stated half life because it is a suicidal AI and actually eliminates the estrogen receptors and it takes the body some time to reproduce more?
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    I read something about this a few months ago. Here is the best I remember:

    Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs.

    Androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs. There are some similarities between the two types of AIs.

    Both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI’s.

    For type I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed.

    Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis.

    Type II, inhibitors, reversibly bind to the active enzymesite, and one of two things can happen:

    1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or
    2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect.

    The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors.

    Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don’t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects.

    Bottom line, you are on the mark.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post
    I read something about this a few months ago. Here is the best I remember:

    Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs.

    Androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs. There are some similarities between the two types of AIs.

    Both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI's.

    For type I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed.

    Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis.

    Type II, inhibitors, reversibly bind to the active enzymesite, and one of two things can happen:

    1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or
    2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect.

    The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors.

    Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don't need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects.

    Bottom line, you are on the mark.
    Thanks for the info. With that being said is every other day dosing @ 12. 5mg still the best option.
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    Quote Originally Posted by atl3128 View Post
    Thanks for the info. With that being said is every other day dosing @ 12. 5mg still the best option.
    Initially it is perfectly fine. You just need to listen to your body. If you start getting itchy nipples, then move to ED. If at all possible, it would be ideal to stay at that dosing until you run labs and see the results.

    You will know if it is not working well. You can still have elevated levels of E2 and no itchy nipples, but gyno is not going to sneak up on you.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post
    Initially it is perfectly fine. You just need to listen to your body. If you start getting itchy nipples, then move to ED. If at all possible, it would be ideal to stay at that dosing until you run labs and see the results.

    You will know if it is not working well. You can still have elevated levels of E2 and no itchy nipples, but gyno is not going to sneak up on you.......
    I was originally going with 12.mg E3D but now I think I will go EOD and just see how I feel and adjust from there
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    Quote Originally Posted by atl3128 View Post
    I was originally going with 12.mg E3D but now I think I will go EOD and just see how I feel and adjust from there
    what makes you think you need 12mg EOD jumping from 200mg to 300mg test since you are not doing any AI right now?
    Just curious
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    what makes you think you need 12mg EOD jumping from 200mg to 300mg test since you are not doing any AI right now?
    Just curious
    Just advice from folks on here and other places. I decided to stay at 12.5 EOD and adjust from there if needed because it didnt make sense to take more when I wasnt sure if I even needed it.
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    I personally prefer formestane. Below is a great comparison of AI's.

    A Very Quick Physiology Lesson
    The male body uses an enzyme called aromatase to convert a percentage of susceptible androgens into estrogens. Naturally this includes both those the body produces and those introduced from outside the body such as AAS (Anabolic Androgenic Steroids). In most cases the result is predominantly a very powerful estrogen called estradiol.

    Aromatase is present in most body tissues and the circulatory system. Unfortunately fat cells produce a scary amount of this man-altering enzyme…which of course explains why fat guys get boobs. (Yikes!)

    When we think of aromatase inhibitors we often assume that they are all the same with various levels of results…depending upon dosages. While the latter may be true, the prior statement certainly is not.

    Aromatase Inhibitor "Types"?
    Let’s do a quick review of the types of aromatase inhibitors that are available. These include type 1, or steroidal inactivators, and type 2, or nonsteroidal inhibitors. The type 1 aromatase inhibitors include exemestane and formestane and are actually androgen analogues (cool stuff if applied right!). The type 2 inhibitors include aminoglutethimide, anastrozole, letrozole, and vorozole.

    There are both similarities and differences between the type 1 and 2 aromatase inhibitors. Their similarities include the fact that both inhibit aromatase in a very specific fashion and reduce endogenous or circulating estrogens. On the other hand, the steroidal inhibitors are rather better classified as inactivators, in that they bind to the aromatase molecule in an irreversible fashion (they hold on and do not let go). Because aromatase is rapidly replaced within the body, however, the significance of this property in terms of clinical benefit is unclear in some ways. In addition, the "inactivators" have a structure quite similar to that of androgens and may, in higher doses, have anabolic steroid or androgen-type properties.

    Of the type 2 agents, letrozole tends to be more potent than anastrozole and both are more potent than aminoglutethimide in regard to estrogen production. Of the type 1 agents, exemestane is considerably more potent than formestane. But again in each case this may be dose dependant more so than a question of effectiveness of the drug itself. In vivo (tested in live subjects rather than a test tube), the aromatase inhibitors can be graded as shown in the basic table below.

    Relative Potency of Type 1 and Type 2 Aromatase Inhibitors

    Product Aromatase Inhibition (%) Residual Aromatase (%)
    Formestane/
    4-Androstenoldione 91.9 8.1
    ------------------------0---------------------------------------0--------------------------------------0
    Aromasin/
    Exemestane 97.9 2.1
    ------------------------0---------------------------------------0--------------------------------------0
    Cytadren/
    Aminoglutethimide 90.6 9.4
    ------------------------0---------------------------------------0--------------------------------------0
    Arimidex/
    Anastrozole 96.7 3.1
    ------------------------0---------------------------------------0--------------------------------------0
    Femara/
    Letrozole 98.7 1.3

    -----------------------0---------------------------------------0---------------------------------------0

    So far it would appear that Letrozole is the leader, huh?

    Anti-Estrogens And IGF-1 Production
    GH (Growth Hormone) is like a master hormone for tissue growth and fat regulation due to its own intrinsic qualities and its propensity to be converted into or trigger the production and release of Growth Factors. Of these Growth Factors, one of the best known in regard to muscle growth is IGF-1 (Insulin-Like Growth Factor-1).

    As most are aware by now, IGF-1 is a powerful anabolic and anti-catabolic hormone. Whether in pre-contest mode or packing on the mass, the amount of circulating and stored IGF-1 an athlete maintains plays a powerful role in the results achieved. Obviously as IGF-1 levels decrease so does the potential for packing on the beef, and the amount of lean tissue lost during calorie-restricted periods increases as well. (Not good)

    Estrogen, and more so estradiol, can trigger GH release from the pituitary gland. Aromatase inhibitors decrease the amount of circulating estrogen/estradiol and estrogen receptor antagonist keep estrogen out of the specific pituitary receptors. So in many regards the use of anti-estrogens can effect IGF-1 production and in some cases affect the number of IGF-1 receptors our tissues posses.

    Product Effect Percentage
    Formestane/
    4-Androstenoldione Increases IGF-1 26%
    -------------------------0----------------------------------0-----------------------0
    Femara/
    Letrozol Increases IGF-1 24%
    -------------------------0----------------------------------0-----------------------0
    Arimidex/
    Anastrozole Decreases IGF-1 18%
    -------------------------0----------------------------------0-----------------------0
    Nolvadex/
    Tamoxifen Decreases IGF-1 23.5%
    -------------------------0----------------------------------0-----------------------0
    Faslodex/
    Fulvestrant Decreases IGF-1 70%
    -------------------------0----------------------------------0-----------------------0
    Cytadren/
    Aminoglutethimide Increases IGF-1 27%
    -------------------------0----------------------------------0-----------------------0
    Aromasin/
    Exemestane Increases IGF-1 28%
    -------------------------0----------------------------------0-----------------------0

    Hmmm, so now we have some major points in favor of Cytadren, Aromasin and Formestane.

    Other things to consider pre-contest or simply as a matter of achieving desired results at any point in the pursuit of freak status include…
    When attempting to evaluate "the best" choice for any item, the question of specific-intent should come into play first. If you asked for solely my opinion, then I would choose the product that covered the greatest number of needs for specific-intent or goal(s). Personally I prefer Formestane (under whatever name the product is provided, in the purest most active form).

    Why?

    Formestane increases IGF-1 secretion and activity.
    Formestane decreases the number of progesterone receptors (inhibits the trenbolone and "deca-dick" type side effects and increases fat loss)
    Formestane inhibits 91.9% of aromatase enzyme production
    Formestane increases HPTA activity similar to HCG and Clomid together
    Formestane is anabolic and androgenic (At 500mg weekly the product is similar in effects to 250mg of Primobolan Enanthate)
    Formestane is a "suicide inhibitor" of aromatase. Specifically this means that it will irreversibly bind to the aromatase enzyme and permanently deactivate it
    Formestane (The sterile injectable form) possesses a 4-day half-life
    Formestane decreases SHBG 34% thus increasing androgen activity.
    Formestane inhibits DHT (dehydrotestosterone) formation and activity.
    Formestane possesses 1% of the binding affinity of DHT to DHT receptors
    Formestane has been shown to decrease prostate concerns such as BPH.
    Formestane has been shown to continue to increase HPTA function above natural levels even after 22 weeks of continuous administration.



    Oh, As To Water Retention…
    Naturally the anti-estrogen value of any of the aromatase inhibitors does decrease the affects of the water retention hormone aldosterone. Those that are androgenic in structure seem to do so better. The point is that though some of the other products discussed do posses these qualities, none but formestane has them all. Fewer drugs or products are always a "better choice".

    Cool, But Where Can Formestane Be Found?
    The medically prescribed product Formestane is administered as a deep intramuscular injection. It is commonly known as Lentaron I.M. Depot. Its active ingredient is 4-androstenoldione acetate in a pure isomer form. The product is normally administered for breast cancer patients at a dosage of 250mg every 2 weeks to 250mg weekly. Since androstenoldione acetate has a half-life of about 4 days when administered I.M. the dosing protocol has been less than perfect for those athletes whom have opted to utilize it.
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    Wouldn't lowering your DHT lead to ED issues? I used to take Finasteride a long time ago for about a year, and I've had sex drive issues ever since. I'd rather keep my DHT high than lower it. Lowering e2 is great, but I wouldn't f--- with anything that lowers DHT.
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    I've used formestane for years. It has never affected erection quality. I don't think that it loweres DHT enough to cause erection problems at least not at recommended doses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    I've used formestane for years. It has never affected erection quality. I don't think that it loweres DHT enough to cause erection problems at least not at recommended doses.
    What are the advantages over exemestane?? I don't see any
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    Quote Originally Posted by atl3128 View Post
    Just advice from folks on here and other places. I decided to stay at 12.5 EOD and adjust from there if needed because it didnt make sense to take more when I wasnt sure if I even needed it.
    True, this stuff is strong you may not even need this much
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post

    True, this stuff is strong you may not even need this much
    Man you got that right I am thinking I may need to drop the dose down again my joints seem a little dry and sore even at that dose
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    Quote Originally Posted by atl3128 View Post
    Man you got that right I am thinking I may need to drop the dose down again my joints seem a little dry and sore even at that dose
    There was a reason why I asked you how you got to this dosage
    Try 12.5mg with your test shot once a every 6 days see how that goes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post

    There was a reason why I asked you how you got to this dosage
    Try 12.5mg with your test shot once a every 6 days see how that goes.
    Well I do 100mg of test every 3 days that's part of the reason I was taking the AI every 3 days. Now I dont know if I need it at all I am going to get blood work done to see
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    Quote Originally Posted by atl3128 View Post
    Well I do 100mg of test every 3 days that's part of the reason I was taking the AI every 3 days. Now I dont know if I need it at all I am going to get blood work done to see
    I see
    well since you break it down like that may be the reason why you dont need it at 100mg every 3 days,it prob doesnt give you a spike in test that may aromatize to estrogen. If you were to do a single shot of 300mg then you may need some AI for that initial high.
    On the other hand some ppl just dont aromatize test all that much at lower dosages.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post

    I see
    well since you break it down like that may be the reason why you dont need it at 100mg every 3 days,it prob doesnt give you a spike in test that may aromatize to estrogen. If you were to do a single shot of 300mg then you may need some AI for that initial high.
    On the other hand some ppl just dont aromatize test all that much at lower dosages.
    That's what I was thinking I am just need to get my blood work done again and see where my levels are and go from there
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    Quote Originally Posted by atl3128 View Post
    That's what I was thinking I am just need to get my blood work done again and see where my levels are and go from there
    sounds like a solid plan
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    sounds like a solid plan
    With AI's, blood work is the only, the ONLY definitive guide. I agree 100% V.
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    Quote Originally Posted by atl3128 View Post
    I am currently on a trt dose of testosterone cyp of 200mg every 6 days. I am going to increase my dose to 300mg every 6 days for about 8 weeks in hopes if putting on some lean mass. I haven't taken an AI other than PES Erase before but I just picked up some liquid aromasin and was wondering what a good starting dose would be to keep estrogen in check but not crush it. I was thinking 12.5mg every other day or every 3 days thoughts?
    Forgive me for resurrecting an old thread but while I was searching for an answer to the question above, this thread is what I found. And I also notice the question really was never answered. To my knowledge and from my experience, 200mg E6D is really a VERY uncommon TRT dose. More common is 100mg to 125mg/week.

    I'm considering taking aromasin and I'd be very curious to know the dosing options. Presently I'm doing 28mg EOD, SQ. Averages to about 98mg/week. Also 250iu hCG 2x week. What would be the recommended dosing for such a protocol? Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LtDunbar View Post

    Forgive me for resurrecting an old thread but while I was searching for an answer to the question above, this thread is what I found. And I also notice the question really was never answered. To my knowledge and from my experience, 200mg E6D is really a VERY uncommon TRT dose. More common is 100mg to 125mg/week.

    I'm considering taking aromasin and I'd be very curious to know the dosing options. Presently I'm doing 28mg EOD, SQ. Averages to about 98mg/week. Also 250iu hCG 2x week. What would be the recommended dosing for such a protocol? Thanks.
    If you're on trt, I'd just dose 50mg twice per week, and dump the HCG. Shouldn't have any issue with e2 at that dosage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexmuscle View Post
    If you're on trt, I'd just dose 50mg twice per week, and dump the HCG. Shouldn't have any issue with e2 at that dosage.
    Thanks for your reply. My E2 is at 39 (Sensitive assay). Reference range is <OR=29 (Quest labs). I'm currently on 300mg DIM, 50 Zinc and 4mg copper - all daily. Feeling okay but I'm shooting for excellent. Hoping my libido and erection quality was better so that's why I'm looking into Aromasin. Tried Adex but it's just too hard to nail down the right dose and I feel like I'm chasing my tail.

    By the way, I love hCG. Would never consider dropping it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LtDunbar View Post

    Thanks for your reply. My E2 is at 39 (Sensitive assay). Reference range is <OR=29 (Quest labs). I'm currently on 300mg DIM, 50 Zinc and 4mg copper - all daily. Feeling okay but I'm shooting for excellent. Hoping my libido and erection quality was better so that's why I'm looking into Aromasin. Tried Adex but it's just too hard to nail down the right dose and I feel like I'm chasing my tail.

    By the way, I love hCG. Would never consider dropping it.
    I can almost guarantee your e2 will drop dramatically if you stop using HCG, but if you're feeling good and your sex drive is normal, then stick with it. Sometimes an AI can cause more harm than good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexmuscle View Post
    I can almost guarantee your e2 will drop dramatically if you stop using HCG, but if you're feeling good and your sex drive is normal, then stick with it. Sometimes an AI can cause more harm than good.
    I hear ya. I'm not at all new to this, and in principle I agree with you. I've tried Adex and it's such an incredibly powerful med it's very hard to pin down a good dosing protocol. Also, to me the benefits of hCG far outweigh the costs. I hope someone will contribute and comment on my question about Aromasin. I actually started a new thread on this in the Male Anti Aging Medicine section.
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    I agree with lex. Dropping the HCG will help stabilize your levels for sure.

    What do you like so much about the HCG?
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    Quote Originally Posted by steak taco View Post
    I agree with lex. Dropping the HCG will help stabilize your levels for sure.

    What do you like so much about the HCG?
    If you are honestly asking, let me describe it to you. I like that my stones aren't the size of M$Ms and my scrotum isn't pulled up tight like an infant boy's. They are plump and hanging the way they should. I like that my orgasms are bed rattling again not like before when they were so mediocre I almost missed them. I like that I now have a stream of ejaculate, not drips like from a broken faucet. And I also like the fact that this LH analog is going to other LH receptors throughout my body making for overall better health and a feeling of well being. But of course, I could do without all this because it's so unimportant.

    Now that we've covered this, could anyone answer my question?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LtDunbar View Post

    If you are honestly asking, let me describe it to you. I like that my stones aren't the size of M$Ms and my scrotum isn't pulled up tight like an infant boy's. They are plump and hanging the way they should. I like that my orgasms are bed rattling again not like before when they were so mediocre I almost missed them. I like that I now have a stream of ejaculate, not drips like from a broken faucet. And I also like the fact that this LH analog is going to other LH receptors throughout my body making for overall better health and a feeling of well being. But of course, I could do without all this because it's so unimportant.

    Now that we've covered this, could anyone answer my question?
    I wish HCG had worked like that for me when I tried it once, all it did was make me angry and quick tempered. Might give it one more shot, I've got another vial, but from a different company.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexmuscle View Post
    I wish HCG had worked like that for me when I tried it once, all it did was make me angry and quick tempered. Might give it one more shot, I've got another vial, but from a different company.
    Well, if you are Primary, there is probably little that hCG can do for you. But miracles do happen. Give it a try for a month or so.
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    Formestane sounded really cool until the very end - "The medically prescribed product Formestane..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by recon819 View Post
    Formestane sounded really cool until the very end - "The medically prescribed product Formestane..."
    Have you looked at Black Lion Research's Formeron? There is a thread about it in the forum here.
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    That's the topical cream, correct? If so, sounds a bit gimmicky, does it not? Kind of like, fat-melting cream! I guess I don't get it, why there isn't an oral version (?).
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    Quote Originally Posted by recon819 View Post
    That's the topical cream, correct? If so, sounds a bit gimmicky, does it not? Kind of like, fat-melting cream! I guess I don't get it, why there isn't an oral version (?).
    Actually, no, transdermal delivery is effective. I'd read through the threads on the BLR forum page here on AM. There are many on TRT that swear by it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by recon819 View Post
    That's the topical cream, correct? If so, sounds a bit gimmicky, does it not? Kind of like, fat-melting cream! I guess I don't get it, why there isn't an oral version (?).
    Read up on transdermals and come back.
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    Formestane is not effective orally. Although I love Formestane and have used it for years, I'm currently experimenting with Asin for comparison. Formerone is good stuff. I have a pretty good stash on hand.
  

  
 

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