question about HCG

[cottondoc]

I am 35 and was started on prescription Hcg by an endocrinolgist/fertility specialist for low energy and low sex drive. I had testosterone levels in the 150-200 range prior to starting the Hcg. He originally started me on 2,000 units EOD for a couple weeks then dropped me to 1,000 EOD. I felt really good at 2,000 units dose. My sex drive and energy were back up, and I was actually seeing a difference in the gym. While on this dose, he checked my testosterone level and it was 750. After dropping to 1,000 units EOD, my sex drive seemed to drop a little. I was still making progress in the gym though. My testosterone level at this dose after about 2 months was 550. The whole time I was on the Hcg, my nipples were a little more sensitive and puffy than before starting Hcg. There were no lumps or palpable glandular tissue though, so I didn't worry about it too much. Then after about 3 months of total time on the Hcg my current problem started. It seemed like overnight my nipples got significantly more tender(even painful) and I can now feel nearly marble sized firm rubbery tissue directly behind my left nipple. There is similar tissue on the right, but to a much lesser degree. After noticing this, I stopped the Hcg and started 25mg of exemestane per day, and have been doing that for about a week now. The nipple tenderness and size of the rubbery tissue has decreased, but has not gone away. Has anybody else experienced this with HCG? Any suggestions to treat it other than the exemestane I am already on? Letro mabye? I can already tell a difference in the gym though and would like to start some testosterone. I am concerned though that this will make the nipple tissue worse(grow). Any thoughts on starting testosterone? I have been a member on this site since 2005 mainly just reading. I rarely post. I would really appreciate any help or info anybody could give me with this. Thanks.

 

[cottondoc]

Nobody have any thoughts? Why did I get gyno from a testosterone level of 550? My endocrinologist that prescribed the Hcg said it must be from aromatization of testosterone, but that doesn't make any sense to me. I had a totally natural testosterone level of 750 back when I was 28 and didn't have gyno. I have heard Hcg itself can aromatize to estrogen, is this true? I just got some letro, tamox and clomid. Any suggestions for a good dose or regimen of those to combat this gyno? Thanks.

 

[pappybay]

The issue is that HCG converts to Estrogen very easily. E2 and E3 (estradiol) at high levels are NOT good for males and can result in symptoms you are having at present. You need to get on an AI in my opinion ASAP. Anastrozole is a very good AI. At 1,000 IU EOD you probably do not need much, Maybe .5 MG E2D. I am NOT a physician.

Exemestane is an oral steroidal aromatase inhibitor that is used in ER-positive breast cancer in addition to surgery and/or radiation in post-menopausal women. I like arimidex (anastrozole) . You only dose eod typically Aromasin is typically ed.

Adex 0.25mg eod or 0.5mg if sensitive to e2
Aromasin 10mg/12.5mg ed

Really, your doc should have added one of these two from the very beginning in my noncllincial opinion.

I have a friend who developed two large masses under his breast area and will be on prescription drugs probably for the rest of his life.

If the point of the original treatment was to raise your test levels, Test C is the typical path, along with an AI.

Also, test levels at 750 don't mean a whole lot if most of it is bound. You need to be looking at Free Test and even better bio-available Test.

Finally, did you get labs run and if so did you test for E2 and E3? What were those levels?

 

[cottondoc]

Thanks for the info pappybay. I agree that my physician kind of dropped the ball not giving me an AI to begin with. He is a fertility specialist usually dealing with couples having trouble getting pregnant, so I think this is a little out of his usual area of knowledge. I had a free test lab drawn. When I was on 2,000 units of Hcg eod, my total test was 764 and my free test was 31. I haven't had my E levels drawn. I was kind of leaving it up to my physician to order the necessary labs, but I guess that was a mistake in hindsight. I have been taking about 12.5mg of aromasin per day for about 1 week with some improvement. I just started letro today at 0.25mg. I don't have any arimidex. Do you think the letro is sufficient or should I get arimidex instead?

The original treatment was to raise test levels and maintain fertility since I plan on having another kid pretty soon. He didn't want to start me on test and decrease my fertility.

I guess my big questions now are do you think letro will make this gyno go away? And, I really want to start some test to restore my sexdrive and improve my general mood. I can tell my test level versus E level is all messed up because I feel pretty bad. Weak in the gym, no interest in sex, just feeling relatively down. If I continued an AI, do you think I could start a test cycle without making the gyno worse? I have ran a little test in the past(several years ago) with no signs or symptoms of gyno, even without prophylaxis. I have never been prone to gyno until this prolonged Hcg. Thanks again for any info or advice.

 

[pappybay]

Letrozole will suppress your sex drive

Here is what I found:
Running letro to reverse gyno:

Since you were already using an anti-e aside from letro.

Day 1: .25mg letro + anti-e
Day 2: .50mg letro
Day 3: 1.0mg letro
Day 4: 1.5mg letro
Day 5: 2.0mg letro
Day 6: 2.5mg letro

Letro can take a while to kick in so you may want to consider taking your current AI for 4-5 days.

You are supposed to remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. People with a bodyfat % over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg
Day 5: .25mg

You can remain at the .50mg dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at that point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e.

As you come off the letro your E2 will rebound. You need to get on another AI at that time. Ananstrozole is a good alternative that will not kill sex drive. Tell you physician you want to take 2-3 mg per week and split it .5 EOD.

You need to get the labs run for your E2/E3 levels.

I am not a physician so take my comments accordingly.

 

[FireRescue]

Did you get blood work done to check E2?

 

[cottondoc]

I haven't had any labs done yet looking at E levels. I plan on getting that done asap, but it may be next week. Got a lot going on with work right now. I am slowly tapering up my letro as described above. I had also found that info in another thread. I'm am just really curious as to why it happened. It really surprised me how quickly it came on. I had taken a test cycle about a year ago with no gyno symptoms at all. I had an AI on hand, but never had to use it. My test level on that cycle was over 2,000, but again, no symptoms of gyno. I hadn't taken anything in a long time when my physician started me on this Hcg. My test level was only 550, so I didn't think any AI was needed. Guess I was wrong. I guess it was because of the Hcg in particular. Thanks for the info and help.

 

[FireRescue]

There is a harmony of hormones that come into play that could irritate gyno symptoms. I'm persoanlly not surprised HCG only can irritate it more than a test cycle.

 

[cottondoc]

There is a harmony of hormones that come into play that could irritate gyno symptoms. I'm persoanlly not surprised HCG only can irritate it more than a test cycle.

Yeah, I've always thought this stuff was more complicated than most people realize, but this latest episode taught me just how complicated and difficult to manage it can be. Thanks to everybody for the advice and info.

 

[FireRescue]

Progesterone and Prolactin come into play with Gyno too. Not just estrogen although estrogen is the primary culprit.

 

[pappybay]

Progesterone and Prolactin come into play with Gyno too. Not just estrogen although estrogen is the primary culprit.

Agreed.
Progesterone and Prolactin are more of a focal point for females.

 

[cottondoc]

I have been on Letro now for a couple weeks. My gyno started to slowly shrink but was still there. The letro was killing my sex drive so bad, I added aromasin with the intention of slowly stopping the letro. I am now off the letro and I swear my gyno is getting worse again. It looks like my actual nipple is getting bigger, not the areola, but the nipple itself. Is that from estrogen or progesterone? I am about to order blood work. What do you recommend for labs to order? Estrogen level, Test and free test level, progesterone level? Are those the labs I should order or do I need to order something different? Thanks for any info or help.

 

[pappybay]

I have been on Letro now for a couple weeks. My gyno started to slowly shrink but was still there. The letro was killing my sex drive so bad, I added aromasin with the intention of slowly stopping the letro. I am now off the letro and I swear my gyno is getting worse again. It looks like my actual nipple is getting bigger, not the areola, but the nipple itself. Is that from estrogen or progesterone? I am about to order blood work. What do you recommend for labs to order? Estrogen level, Test and free test level, progesterone level? Are those the labs I should order or do I need to order something different? Thanks for any info or help.

You need to be working with a physician and not relying on a bunch of people with personalized experience. In my earlier post I indicated the letro would kill sex drive.

Clearly E and E2 are the big drivers of Gyno and should be monitored.

i hope this helps.

 

[cottondoc]

Thanks Pappybay. Yeah, I knew you mentioned letro would kill sex drive. I was expecting it, just didn't realize it would be that complete. I have an appointment Friday with the guy that started me on the Hcg to begin with, so hopefully he can help me figure something out. Thanks again.

 

[pappybay]

Thanks Pappybay. Yeah, I knew you mentioned letro would kill sex drive. I was expecting it, just didn't realize it would be that complete. I have an appointment Friday with the guy that started me on the Hcg to begin with, so hopefully he can help me figure something out. Thanks again.

Keep us in the loop! You will find a solution, just hang in there and stay determined.

 

[cottondoc]

Saw the doctor that prescribed the Hcg last Friday. He wasn't too worried about my chest. He agreed I had a little fullness, but didn't think it was anything to worry about. He offered to order E and E2 levels, but didn't think they would be high enough for him to change his plan. I'm going to slowly taper off the AI and see how my nipples respond and how I feel. I'm not thrilled with how my chest looks, but if I can just get to feeling normal again, I can deal with my chest. Only stopped the AI 1 day ago. I will post here if I see a negative change in my chest. Thanks.

 

[pappybay]

Saw the doctor that prescribed the Hcg last Friday. He wasn't too worried about my chest. He agreed I had a little fullness, but didn't think it was anything to worry about. He offered to order E and E2 levels, but didn't think they would be high enough for him to change his plan. I'm going to slowly taper off the AI and see how my nipples respond and how I feel. I'm not thrilled with how my chest looks, but if I can just get to feeling normal again, I can deal with my chest. Only stopped the AI 1 day ago. I will post here if I see a negative change in my chest. Thanks.

Sounds great. I would take your doc up on the E and E2 as a standard part of monitoring your health. Those labs are covered by 99.99%of all insurances and the results eliminate your opinion and the opinion of your physician. The results are simple facts and in my opinion, are mandatory fior anyone on TRT.

The good news is you sound much calmer about your situation.

 

[cottondoc]

Yeah, I will probably get him to order the E and E2 levels. It would be good to know for sure where I'm at. Yeah, I am also calmed down about the situation. I'm still not happy with my chest, but the change isn't as drastic maybe as I thought to begin with. Thanks again for all the good advice.

 

[pappybay]

Yeah, I will probably get him to order the E and E2 levels. It would be good to know for sure where I'm at. Yeah, I am also calmed down about the situation. I'm still not happy with my chest, but the change isn't as drastic maybe as I thought to begin with. Thanks again for all the good advice.

No problem. Remember, E and E2 should be mandatory labs. You also need to add RBC as a check on potential high blood pressure.

Keep us updated on your progress.

 

[cottondoc]

Will do.

 

[vassille]

I've read the entire thread and all I have to say is WOW. I dont need to be a doctor to tell you that for someone with low testosterone you like primed to get gyno with HCG. What it does it forces your nuts to produce test in way higher dose than your body is accustomed and all you need is this quick bump in test levels to get gyno. Your doctor is an idiot and you should def not listen to him. Honestly you did develop gyno from his mistake and he should pay to get it removed in the tune of 5k.
THe difference between injectible test and HCG is that taken in large bursts HCG sort of suprises the body with an abundance of free test within hours. As a results in a majority of cases ppl get gyno or at least puffy nipples which will lead to gyno in no time.HCG also uses a different pathway to deliver testosterone into your body. Exhagenous test will take a bit longer to built up in your system thus is easier to control and not get gyno. Eventually you may get gyno if you do enough dose but most times you dont with an HRT dosage.
On the other hand taking AIs on top of AIs is not the solution either. I mean you are going to a doctor and he doesnt even check for E. To get gyno your E can be a bit over 100. Normally it's around 30. So if you think about it is not all that much to get over E over 100 and get gyno.
2000iu EOD is a big dose for someone who just started out. 500iu EOD ia more suitable starting point and see what happens.
Problem with taking 2000iu EOD it gets complicated if you want to use it in conjunction an AI. HCG acts very quickly where aromasin doesnt. I actually preffer in this case to use Arimidex. Works much faster than aromasin and it's easier to time it with your HCG shots without killing your sex drive.
I will say it again..your doctor is an idiot for giving you HCG without an AI. You should sue him. He is blowing you off with the gyno because he doesnt want to admit fault but if I were you I'd get a lawer and sue his ass for being stupid.

 

[pappybay]

I've read the entire thread and all I have to say is WOW. I dont need to be a doctor to tell you that for someone with low testosterone you like primed to get gyno with HCG. What it does it forces your nuts to produce test in way higher dose than your body is accustomed and all you need is this quick bump in test levels to get gyno. Your doctor is an idiot and you should def not listen to him. Honestly you did develop gyno from his mistake and he should pay to get it removed in the tune of 5k.
THe difference between injectible test and HCG is that taken in large bursts HCG sort of suprises the body with an abundance of free test within hours. As a results in a majority of cases ppl get gyno or at least puffy nipples which will lead to gyno in no time.HCG also uses a different pathway to deliver testosterone into your body. Exhagenous test will take a bit longer to built up in your system thus is easier to control and not get gyno. Eventually you may get gyno if you do enough dose but most times you dont with an HRT dosage.
On the other hand taking AIs on top of AIs is not the solution either. I mean you are going to a doctor and he doesnt even check for E. To get gyno your E can be a bit over 100. Normally it's around 30. So if you think about it is not all that much to get over E over 100 and get gyno.
2000iu EOD is a big dose for someone who just started out. 500iu EOD ia more suitable starting point and see what happens.
Problem with taking 2000iu EOD it gets complicated if you want to use it in conjunction an AI. HCG acts very quickly where aromasin doesnt. I actually preffer in this case to use Arimidex. Works much faster than aromasin and it's easier to time it with your HCG shots without killing your sex drive.
I will say it again..your doctor is an idiot for giving you HCG without an AI. You should sue him. He is blowing you off with the gyno because he doesnt want to admit fault but if I were you I'd get a lawer and sue his ass for being stupid.

You are the master. I agree with 100% of your comment. Cotton suffered from a lack of personal knowledge (expected in this case) and a doc with a lack of professional knowledge (unacceptable in any case).

 

[vassille]

You are the master. I agree with 100% of your comment. Cotton suffered from a lack of personal knowledge (expected in this case) and a doc with a lack of professional knowledge (unacceptable in any case).

Thanks bro I try to help when I can. I've gained valuable knowledge close to 15 years messing with this stuff and what erks me is people like Cotton who are trying to do the right thing going to a suppose specialist geting the wrong treatment.

 

[GO_OUTSIDE!]

Ive been reading along and wanted to ask about timing the hcg with the ai. How does that work, whats the method?

 

[pappybay]

Ive been reading along and wanted to ask about timing the hcg with the ai. How does that work, whats the method?

HCG enters your system very quickly, in 2-4 hours. Half life is 2-3 days (ref below)

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/2089158-overview

AIs/SERM:
Anastrozole: 48 hr half life (type II)
Aromasin: 27 hours (type I -- permanent bind))
Letro: 48 hr half life (type II)

There are a number of posts on the topic of injection timing. I pin Test twice a week and HCG the day after my Test injection. If you are on an AI anyway, you are probably covered. I am taking an AI the day after my Test injection so I don't need to take again when I do the HCG injection. The timing of your AI depends on personal response to Test and HCG as well as the type of AI/SERM you are using.

Most research on HCG is related to women and fertility. There are studies on hypogonadism and PLENTY of threads here on HCG and PCT.

If you are JUST on HCG, it would seem logical to take you AI the day of your HCG injection.