Does your body "adapt" to TRT?

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    Does your body "adapt" to TRT?


    Probably a dumb question and yes I have searched threads and read for hours in forums.

    The questions

    Does your body get "used to" a certain level of test and the intended effect is diminished?



    Will a certain amount of test allow you to get to a certain level of supportable muscle mass after which you will plateau and stop making gains? If yes, is there some general rule of thumb which determines the relationship between quantity of test and growth potential ( obviously there is some relationship, I am just trying to figure out what to expect).

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    in for some info on this
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    I'll answer this from personal experience and see if anyone chimes in with actual medical proof.

    From a mental health stand point:

    I notice that I am much more "even" after being on TRT for a couple years now. There isn't anymore guessing with dosage and timing, and I feel great from inject to inject e6d. Confidence is always up, and I rarely have any down thoughts or feel "bummed" about day to day things.

    From a body composition standpoint:

    Genetics has always allowed me to put on muscle very easily, and even with low 200's test, I was able to maintain most of it with a lot of hard work. TRT allowed me completely change this. The same workouts have allowed me to pack on about 10lbs of solid muscle, but the way I carry it is different. I routinely get asked what I am on and what I am doing because my shoulders widened, forearms grew, ass got bigger, and my calves have veins always popping out. That being said, if I want to add or drop 5-8lbs from here, I simply switch up my diet. My composition is no longer changing due to TRT dosages, and I simply look like a dude that works his ass off. To get to another level, more test and other supplements would be needed. I have no desire for that.

    From a health standpoint:

    Never been healthier. I've mentioned this, but I simply don't get sick anymore and I recover in next to no time. I can go and do a workout that makes me barely able to walk and the next day I am ready to get back on it. I couldn't do that in my 20s. To me, this is one of the best perks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post
    Probably a dumb question and yes I have searched threads and read for hours in forums.

    The questions

    Does your body get "used to" a certain level of test and the intended effect is diminished?
    no. x mg of testosterone provides a blood level of y in a given person. The only other parts that may change are the SHBG level and/or aromatase levels but they too will even out pretty quickly. Seems like in the first 6 months or so all that hits homeostasis.


    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post
    Will a certain amount of test allow you to get to a certain level of supportable muscle mass after which you will plateau and stop making gains? If yes, is there some general rule of thumb which determines the relationship between quantity of test and growth potential ( obviously there is some relationship, I am just trying to figure out what to expect).
    no more so than with someone who isn't on TRT
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post

    no more so than with someone who isn't on TRT

    Could not disagree more. Most guys are not walking around with test levels that those of us on TRT are on, and are also subject to a lot of outside influence with regards to stress, sleep, etc when their body is naturally producing it. Especially guys in our age brackets, who are likely in the 500-600 range when they are healthy. After injection, we can be walking around with 1000-1300 levels for days, and that is certainly going to be beneficial to muscle building, composition, and recovery.

    It's not until it is time for the next injection that most of us are at the level that the average guy is walking around at.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Could not disagree more. Most guys are not walking around with test levels that those of us on TRT are on, and are also subject to a lot of outside influence with regards to stress, sleep, etc when their body is naturally producing it. Especially guys in our age brackets, who are likely in the 500-600 range when they are healthy. After injection, we can be walking around with 1000-1300 levels for days, and that is certainly going to be beneficial to muscle building, composition, and recovery.

    It's not until it is time for the next injection that most of us are at the level that the average guy is walking around at.
    you are right in terms of what that level would be, but his question was whether it would "allow you to get to a certain level of supportable muscle mass after which you will plateau and stop making gains" and it is as true on TRT as natural. But yes for most guys what that level of supportable muscle mass is would be higher as the overall testosterone level is higher. Either way there is a point you'll reach that becomes harder and harder to add more lean mass.
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    yeah, I guess not everybody on TRT is looking to cycle at higher doses. I forgot about that
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    .

    no more so than with someone who isn't on TRT
    I do/do not understand? I am at 160 mg per week and adding muscle mass at a faster than ever rate (compared to younger years and pre TRT at my current age). I assume at some point my body will not add additional mass despite my best efforts, including proper diet, sleep, rest, etc. Not sure why I assume this but the competitive body builders ( I have no such goals) are on a much greater TRT rate than me ( I assume to support?? Existing mass and add additional mass). Therefore, it follows that I will "max out" on sustainable muscle mass at some point. I am not sure this conflicts with your comments.

    I just do not want to be disappointed in my goal to move my weight from 180 to 205-215 and maintain that weight.

    BTW, thank you very much for your comments, they are appreciated.
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    Re: Does your body "adapt" to TRT?


    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Could not disagree more. Most guys are not walking around with test levels that those of us on TRT are on, and are also subject to a lot of outside influence with regards to stress, sleep, etc when their body is naturally producing it. Especially guys in our age brackets, who are likely in the 500-600 range when they are healthy. After injection, we can be walking around with 1000-1300 levels for days, and that is certainly going to be beneficial to muscle building, composition, and recovery.

    It's not until it is time for the next injection that most of us are at the level that the average guy is walking around at.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post
    I do/do not understand? I am at 160 mg per week and adding muscle mass at a faster than ever rate (compared to younger years and pre TRT at my current age). I assume at some point my body will not add additional mass despite my best efforts, including proper diet, sleep, rest, etc. Not sure why I assume this but the competitive body builders ( I have no such goals) are on a much greater TRT rate than me ( I assume to support?? Existing mass and add additional mass). Therefore, it follows that I will "max out" on sustainable muscle mass at some point. I am not sure this conflicts with your comments.

    I just do not want to be disappointed in my goal to move my weight from 180 to 205-215 and maintain that weight.

    BTW, thank you very much for your comments, they are appreciated.
    no it doesn't conflict, my point was that whether or not you are on TRT, there is a maximum you can carry for a given overall testosterone level. A higher testosterone level will let you carry more. but your desired range is reasonable at normal levels so long as you aren't expecting to be "get on bodybuilding stage lean" year round.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post
    I do/do not understand? I am at 160 mg per week and adding muscle mass at a faster than ever rate (compared to younger years and pre TRT at my current age). I assume at some point my body will not add additional mass despite my best efforts, including proper diet, sleep, rest, etc. Not sure why I assume this but the competitive body builders ( I have no such goals) are on a much greater TRT rate than me ( I assume to support?? Existing mass and add additional mass). Therefore, it follows that I will "max out" on sustainable muscle mass at some point. I am not sure this conflicts with your comments.

    I just do not want to be disappointed in my goal to move my weight from 180 to 205-215 and maintain that weight.

    BTW, thank you very much for your comments, they are appreciated.
    We are all essentially saying the same things, but apparently not reading each other's posts. Lol. I said what EasyEJL said and you said what we said.

    In short- yes, you will gain more on TRT than someone that is not on TRT and does not have natural levels on the very high end of the range, which is almost no one. You will also reap the rewards of everything TRT brings along with those physical gains.

    You will reach a point that you max out those benefits like anyone else that is keeping their diet, rest, and workouts at their best or near. After that, you will need to add more test and/or other supplementation to get to the next level- whatever that may be for you. I personally, am at that level and completely fine with it. I am not a body builder, but rather a strength trainer that is involved in a lot of competitive activities. It would not be beneficial for me to carry around 225lbs of mass, but I know that I easily could running another 150mg of test a week.
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    I will say one thing though I upped my test a couple days ago for the next few weeks. I feel so good, I've literally been whistling around the house. I'm like wtf, even to myself. I'm giddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    I will say one thing though I upped my test a couple days ago for the next few weeks. I feel so good, I've literally been whistling around the house. I'm like wtf, even to myself. I'm giddy
    what kind of sucks is that higher doses start to bring new health issues (some that you don't feel) and staying at a high dose for too long makes (at least for the first while) going back to normal dose feel like crap
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    too long... 500 for 10 weeks? Whatcha think?
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    it will still suck the first month or two back at the 150 a week range, but it will be just a relative thing. You'll have had over 2 months at more testosterone in you than 3 18 year olds put together. So being back to normal will be a drag at first. the main health risk is the high red blood cell count, but that will take longer to be a big issue
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    i have been on trt for 8 yrs...i have never come off trt in that time..i have found it best to inject e3d to keep blood levels stable..one thing to keep in mind as men age towards and past 40 hormonal changes occur....as e2 increases it binds to the testosterone receptor sites in the body..increased e2 also creates higher SHBG levels..so both of these reduce the amount of free test in the body..as you age you need to look into a increase in the amount of AI's you use..i know of one male over 40 who now requires 1mg of adex ed on 200mg of test cyp ew to maintain normal e2 levels...so keep the e2 in check...
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    Very good advice. Have you tried to use HCG at all and if so, what was the result? I will have my SHBG tested on my next labs. Have you ever used maca to help with e2 (estrogen??) levels?
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    I'm thinking about hcg. My balls are smalls and it feels weird.
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    HCG is very expensive for vanity, imo. Plus, it can add to e2 issues and make you bloated. I ran it for 3 bottles because I also felt weird with my nuts shrinking, but I had sides I didn't like. I literally would bloat up worse than if I was on creatine mono and get real moody. But my nuts looked great. LOL.

    I couldn't find it under $125 a bottle for 30 days worth.
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    OK good to know. Actually, I think my E2 was getting too high. I started exemestane today and placebo or not, I think that was what I needed. Not sure erase pro was strong enough.
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    If HCG in fact keeps the testes functioning at small dose levels (250 per week based on threads on this forum), I thought why not. My MD has a different opinion and he is the one writing the scripts......
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    yeah, same here. But if you look at some of the anti aging clinics, they include hcg and AI's with trt as standard procedure... Funny how that works
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post
    Very good advice. Have you tried to use HCG at all and if so, what was the result? I will have my SHBG tested on my next labs. Have you ever used maca to help with e2 (estrogen??) levels?
    i have not tried maca before..i am prescribed and take 250ius of hcg every monday and thursday..i would just go e3d's but its alot easier for me to remember mon/thrus...keeps the "boys" nice and full..def look at your shbg..most doc dont or wont even test for it..alot are in the dark on hrt..
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    HCG is very expensive for vanity, imo. Plus, it can add to e2 issues and make you bloated. I ran it for 3 bottles because I also felt weird with my nuts shrinking, but I had sides I didn't like. I literally would bloat up worse than if I was on creatine mono and get real moody. But my nuts looked great. LOL.

    I couldn't find it under $125 a bottle for 30 days worth.
    if ya look around and i think you could def find a better price then $125 em..unless your using a high dose..how much hcg did you run that made you feel uncomfortable?..and in conjunction with what other supps?
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    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    OK good to know. Actually, I think my E2 was getting too high. I started exemestane today and placebo or not, I think that was what I needed. Not sure erase pro was strong enough.
    erase and aromasin arent in the same league...
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post
    If HCG in fact keeps the testes functioning at small dose levels (250 per week based on threads on this forum), I thought why not. My MD has a different opinion and he is the one writing the scripts......
    try educating your MD..i always say if your doc isnt well versed on HRT then showing them some facts based clinicial research can help sometimes..
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    Quote Originally Posted by s2h View Post
    if ya look around and i think you could def find a better price then $125 em..unless your using a high dose..how much hcg did you run that made you feel uncomfortable?..and in conjunction with what other supps?
    500iu twice a week when I was injecting once a week and then I had to switch to 500iu 3xweek. The problem was that even though I technically had enough for a 60 days, it would lose all effectiveness after the bac water in 30-40 days. In my opinion, unless you still plan to have kids, it is a useless product on TRT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by s2h View Post
    erase and aromasin arent in the same league...
    They aren't, but I wouldn't say they are worlds apart. For an OTC, Erase is very good for those of us that don't suffer from bad e2.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    500iu twice a week when I was injecting once a week and then I had to switch to 500iu 3xweek. The problem was that even though I technically had enough for a 60 days, it would lose all effectiveness after the bac water in 30-40 days. In my opinion, unless you still plan to have kids, it is a useless product on TRT.
    i use it only to keep my testies full....all done with kids..if yours is from a script..you can ask the doc to right the script different to allow for the pharm to fill it in lower iu vials...that way you dont have to reconstitute all at one time...
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post
    If HCG in fact keeps the testes functioning at small dose levels (250 per week based on threads on this forum), I thought why not. My MD has a different opinion and he is the one writing the scripts......
    Okay, let's say I show the MD research and he is okay with giving it a try. My test production is shutdown at present and everything I have read says you have to start with massive doses (5,000) to get test production post cycle,then back off. I would be attempting in a permanent cycle mode, i.e.. no "post cycle" How do you get test production started in that scenario?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post

    Okay, let's say I show the MD research and he is okay with giving it a try. My test production is shutdown at present and everything I have read says you have to start with massive doses (5,000) to get test production post cycle,then back off. I would be attempting in a permanent cycle mode, i.e.. no "post cycle" How do you get test production started in that scenario?
    Not sure your question. If you're shutdown from TRT, and on it for life, why do you want natural production?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post
    Okay, let's say I show the MD research and he is okay with giving it a try. My test production is shutdown at present and everything I have read says you have to start with massive doses (5,000) to get test production post cycle,then back off. I would be attempting in a permanent cycle mode, i.e.. no "post cycle" How do you get test production started in that scenario?
    you don't get it started. the HCG mimics the natural hormone LH which is what causes the testicles to create testosterone themselves. you'd want to start no higher than 250iu 2x a week and evaluate at a month. If you still think you have shrinkage, then going to 500iu is possible. But at that point you may start getting excess estrogen
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    you don't get it started. the HCG mimics the natural hormone LH which is what causes the testicles to create testosterone themselves. you'd want to start no higher than 250iu 2x a week and evaluate at a month. If you still think you have shrinkage, then going to 500iu is possible. But at that point you may start getting excess estrogen
    Sounds right to me and I been challenged by excess Estro. At one point I started getting itching nipples, but since I have moves to 3 MG per week, I have not noticed any symptoms and the slight joint soreness (cured with Fish Oil) may be a positive indicator of Estro control. I will run labs in about three weeks and we will see. Your comments on how HCG works connected.
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    3F, your point is well taken and I agree in theory. I would hate for ( and I know you guys will be the h beat of me verbally for this) Obama's administration to make changes in healthcare that could cause problems with my TRT program (insurance coverage, etc.) or for some reason I could not afford the TRT, I would be stuck with a set of testes that had not produced in many years. There seem to be many "research paper" and personal observations about challenges with a test restart in those situations.

    This conspiracy logic is the only reason I am interested in the HCG.
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    Regarding MACA, I have stated a run and will give everyone my observations (probably belongs in supplement section). It is noted to help with AI and lift sexual function. Probably smoke and mirrors although it has been around and used for thousands of years......
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post
    3F, your point is well taken and I agree in theory. I would hate for ( and I know you guys will be the h beat of me verbally for this) Obama's administration to make changes in healthcare that could cause problems with my TRT program (insurance coverage, etc.) or for some reason I could not afford the TRT, I would be stuck with a set of testes that had not produced in many years. There seem to be many "research paper" and personal observations about challenges with a test restart in those situations.

    This conspiracy logic is the only reason I am interested in the HCG.
    but this is pointless. You are on TRT because your body doesn't create enough testosterone. Forcing yourself to take more drugs, then more drugs to counteract the effect of those drugs just in case you may have a problem staying on TRT is totally backwards from a health sense since you still after that won't be creating enough anyhow if your TRT is forcibly ended.
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    Wow, this thread took a turn for the worse. So now we are talking about taking a drug because of made up theory on what the current administration might do.

    Holy crap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    but this is pointless. You are on TRT because your body doesn't create enough testosterone. Forcing yourself to take more drugs, then more drugs to counteract the effect of those drugs just in case you may have a problem staying on TRT is totally backwards from a health sense since you still after that won't be creating enough anyhow if your TRT is forcibly ended.
    After thinking about it, I agree 100%. It is pointless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Wow, this thread took a turn for the worse. So now we are talking about taking a drug because of made up theory on what the current administration might do.

    Holy crap.
    Funny, but the information is relevant and informative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post
    I do/do not understand? I am at 160 mg per week and adding muscle mass at a faster than ever rate (compared to younger years and pre TRT at my current age). I assume at some point my body will not add additional mass despite my best efforts, including proper diet, sleep, rest, etc. Not sure why I assume this but the competitive body builders ( I have no such goals) are on a much greater TRT rate than me ( I assume to support?? Existing mass and add additional mass). Therefore, it follows that I will "max out" on sustainable muscle mass at some point. I am not sure this conflicts with your comments.

    I just do not want to be disappointed in my goal to move my weight from 180 to 205-215 and maintain that weight.

    BTW, thank you very much for your comments, they are appreciated.
    I have been lifting for thirty years without adding much mass. Since I switched from test cream, which did little good, to test cyp injections the end of last August I have added an inch to my biceps and about ten pounds of weight. A small amount of that is fat and some of it may be water.

    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    I'm thinking about hcg. My balls are smalls and it feels weird.
    I use HCG to keep them large. The thing is, they don't really get small they just get sort of light and soft. They don't hang and when warm my scrotum would just hang there empty.

    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    HCG is very expensive for vanity, imo. But my nuts looked great. LOL.

    I couldn't find it under $125 a bottle for 30 days worth.
    Yes, but I'm vain. I have been buying Pregnyl 10000IU vials for about $69. Supposed to be good for 60 Days.

    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    500iu twice a week when I was injecting once a week and then I had to switch to 500iu 3xweek. The problem was that even though I technically had enough for a 60 days, it would lose all effectiveness after the bac water in 30-40 days. In my opinion, unless you still plan to have kids, it is a useless product on TRT.
    Unless of course you like your testicles big.

    Something I am trying which was suggested in another forum is to load syringes with HCG then freeze them. There is supposed to be some research out there somewhere saying that this works. Doing this I can get 20 weeks at 250 per week out of one 10000IU vial. If my testicles stay big then I guess I'll know it's working.
  

  
 

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