Mind Steriods or Noots

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    Mind Steriods or Noots


    I've decided to invest in some "mental steroids." Not just DHEA and Preg either. I'm going to try combinations of Aniracetam, Pramiracetam, and Sulbutiamine. The new kid on the block is Noopept. Noopept takes very small amounts to be effective, say 10-15 mg. I need to push some mental limits and learn some new things. I've already used Bacopa, Lion's Mane, and Piracetam to good results in the in the past, but the above are much stronger than Piracetam.

    I'll probably track my results on here for the fun of it. These should arrive in less than a week. I'm getting a scale that goes down to 1 mg and is probably accurate to about 2 mgs, as I want to accurately track Noopept doses and keep them in range.

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    I'm in for the ride.

    My personal favorite and a staple of mine is Aniracetam. I have yet to find anything that works better for anxiety and public speaking. This stuff is simply amazing to me and 30 min after taking it, my head just clears up and words are so easy to find when talking. I can't imagine being without it.

    Piracetam- I hated it. I played with the doses and could never get it right. It made me tired, irritable, slow, and was bad for public speaking. Maybe it would be good for studying, where you don't have to interact with people, but it did not sit well with me. I tried adjusting choline levels too.

    Oxiracetam- I liked it, but was very similar to huperzine-a to me with the mental energy and if you take too much, the anxiety. It is good stuff, but expensive, when I could get huperzine for a 1/3 of the price and essentially have the same effects.

    I look forward to you review on noopept because there are mixed ones out there. That is part of the experimental part of noots- everyone reacts differently.
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    kisaj,

    Yeah, The Noopept hasn't even been shipped yet. But the other noots have and should reach here by later in the week. About 2/3 of the reviews I've seen on noopept looked good, but a couple talked about anger problems and other things. I want to try the noopept without the racetams and sulbutiamine at first. I'll possibly add aniracetam to it later with sulbutiamine if it works out. I'll keep the levels of the noopept to about 12mg at twice a day at first using the scale.

    Have you tried Pramiracetam?
    •   
       

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    I haven't yet and it is only because I read a number of reviews that talk about excitement and a "racy" feeling in the mind. I don't need that as I tend to have 100 things going at once and my goal is more focus. That is why I fell in love with the Ani and the organizational ability it provides, which helps public speaking. I deal with executives on a daily basis and need to be razor sharp and present things well.
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    kisaj,

    I'm interested in creativity itself in the sense of passion for life or really being into what you're doing or as the motivational speakers say, "Catching Fire." I split this into at least two parts as there's straight intensity connected usually to the dopamine reward system with it's ups and downs like a roller coaster ride. Yet there's also relaxed passion as in Zen involvement. It's much slower to build but has less ups and downs and only uses the dopamine reward system as an add-on and is not stimulant driven.

    The dopamine version of "Catching Fire" is depleting as what goes up must eventually come down. The relaxed or slower passion does not require frequent breaks or having a burn out effect. It's still passion though.

    I'm going to spend some time experimenting with these contrasts and the balance between them (if there is any) with some specific ideas in mind. The noots should help.

    One of the guys who reviewed noopept on another forum thought that Magnesium L-Threonate was a great addition to noopept. The magnesium in that supplement crosses the BBB and has a calming effect.

    ------------------------------------------------------

    May 30th: I ordered the noopept on May 27th and it still said there was several left, and now the company shows a back order of 5 weeks. The order still shows a delivery date of June 6th, but it has not shipped. I sent them an e-mail to cancel if not shipping for 5 weeks. There's another company I can buy from and the other noots are on the way. I'm disappointed as I wanted to test this stuff now rather than later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    I haven't yet and it is only because I read a number of reviews that talk about excitement and a "racy" feeling in the mind. I don't need that as I tend to have 100 things going at once and my goal is more focus. That is why I fell in love with the Ani and the organizational ability it provides, which helps public speaking. I deal with executives on a daily basis and need to be razor sharp and present things well.
    I don't want a lot of stim or "racy" feelings either, at least not consistently. I'm thinking of starting with the Ani and some Sulbutiamine since it will possibly be a while before I can get the noopept. The Prami definitely seems to be in the logical, left-brained, dopamine stimulant area. Which also could mean that it suppresses N.O. and constricts the arteries in the brain?

    How much huperzine-a did you take to get good results?
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    I take 100-200 mcg for the best results. Anymore and my mind races. It definitely is a stimulant in that sense. 100-200 mgs of l-theanine corrects that very quickly, but I don't like to take something to counteract something.
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    There are so many unknowns with the brain and noots that it's a great area for careful exploration. A major economist wrote a book recently about how people are so illogical in their decision making and therefore make poor decisions. I wrote a contrary comment to someones good review, that the economist's book wasn't saying too much different than Plato's chariot metaphor for the mind 2500 years ago. I said that Plato and the Economist were both wrong and that it took a mature intuitive brain as well as a mature logical brain to make good life decisions, and that many people are capable of being very logical and still make poor life decisions. Logic and process orientation cannot tell what data is important to analyze, and often obsesses about unimportant detail. The initial decision about which forests to look into are intuitive. But we need both, and the most innovative companies today make sure that the technical people interact with the "creatives" frequently. This area of cooperation in groups is undergoing a radical improvement today and it's where my biggest interest lay.

    Obviously, in many company settings, office workers are supplied with a structure and the processes they are supposed to analyze. Process innovation is the only creativity they are allowed and the logical side of the brain handles this quite well.
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    sub'd, very interesting stuff.
    Your harness-horse is cold cash, cuz the drugs you use work fast, burned off and out before the race track urine-test - Max Webster
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    I've got a lot of knowledge on this stuff, but not much with the racetams.

    If you want something that works and works immensely... nothing beats Stablon (tianeptine) at a high dose, but it's expensive. Neuroprotective and also regenerative, as well as greatly influencing neuroplacticity. Nothing beats it imo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I've got a lot of knowledge on this stuff, but not much with the racetams.

    If you want something that works and works immensely... nothing beats Stablon (tianeptine) at a high dose, but it's expensive. Neuroprotective and also regenerative, as well as greatly influencing neuroplacticity. Nothing beats it imo
    GP,

    How much Stablon (tianeptine) is a high dose? or what works for you? and what effects can you tell us about? I'm interested.
    --------------------------------------------
    I just did some reading on this and 37.5 mg or 3 -- 12.5 mg caps is said to be a high dose that works and it would run about a $100 for a 40 day supply at the Pharms I looked into.
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    In my trials, I felt as though it were under dosed, and saw benefit at 5-6 caps per day.

    Here are some great links:

    http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14231

    www.tianeptine.com

    That first link will tell you much more than I can! Plus it will prevent me from having to type so much I find it is much more effective than any other neutropic out there, although it is a medication - but a medication without side effects, just positive ones for your brain! I plan on doing another run with it again, but have many other expenses right now and my focus is on full recovery from a surgery I just had.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    In my trials, I felt as though it were under dosed, and saw benefit at 5-6 caps per day.

    Here are some great links:

    http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14231

    www.tianeptine.com

    That first link will tell you much more than I can! Plus it will prevent me from having to type so much I find it is much more effective than any other neutropic out there, although it is a medication - but a medication without side effects, just positive ones for your brain! I plan on doing another run with it again, but have many other expenses right now and my focus is on full recovery from a surgery I just had.
    Received my noots from USP about 7:45 PM last night, and I took a long nap at 10 PM and got up at 1:30 AM this morning and took 750mg of Aniracetam with 100 mcg of huperzine-a, and 500mg of CDP Choline. Two hours later I had a 3 egg omelet (whole eggs - more choline) and took another 750mg of ani. I took fish oil and coconut oil with first dose, and also added some lion's mane mushroom caps. I'm now getting ready to workout as my workout place opens at 4:30 AM. I'm going to do mainly weights, perhaps a little cardio.

    GP,

    Did more looking into reviews on Stablon and it does look good, but pricey for long runs. The best I've found previously that may have actual healing effects on brain are the Lion's Mane along with CDP, and perhaps magnesium when it crosses the blood brain barrier. The racetams may have some positive effects for healing too, but Stablon looks particularly promising in this area.

    A European firm sells 240 caps for $180 with free shipping, and they had a sale where one could have purchased 360 caps for about $190, but that ended yesterday. I would want to do at least a 6-7 week trail run if I started.
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    That is a lot of ani in a short period of time. Also, why are you adding in multiple things all at once? I would think that you would prefer to see how each react on their own and adjust from there rather than having multiple variables in the mix.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    That is a lot of ani in a short period of time. Also, why are you adding in multiple things all at once? I would think that you would prefer to see how each react on their own and adjust from there rather than having multiple variables in the mix.
    I look at this as CDP and huperzine-a are mainly choline enhancers. I may cut back to 750mg of ani per day, but won't stop the CDP choline. I've been taking CDP and lion's mane previously and the ani and the huperzine-a are the only add-ons. Anyway, I will cut back to 750mg of ani per day (it comes in 750 mg caps) for the early tests. I'll lose the huperzine for now. With this the only new noots will be the ani at 750mg dose.

    I've always been somewhat absent minded, even at a young age, and CDP Choline and Lion's Mane have caused a huge improvement over the last year or so. Also, something to enhance choline is a positive with all racetams, so CDP Choline is not an extra, but I could discontinue the Lion's Mane for a bit, as it would be interesting to see how I am without after more than a year. My guess is that it's effects will last anyway.

    I am interested in how well Aniracetam works nearly alone, but not without a solid choline source.
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    Oh, I would recommend definitely keeping a choline source involved- my personal favorite is Alpha GPC. I also would still recommend 1500mg a day, but just spaced further. I don't know where the sources come from that state it has a half life of 2 hours, but I get the effects for 6-7 per 750mg.
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    GP,
    I did find a Turkish Pharm that sells Stablon for $24 per 60 caps (12.5mg per cap), but have no idea about trust factor. On the anxiolytic factors, I''ve been giving much thought lately.
    ------------------------

    I've been thinking about anxiety and fear quite often lately as I ran into a book on the new books shelf in my local library called, "Uncertainty." It was a book aimed at entrapenuers and the fears they always go through starting completely new ventures. His main recommendation to these people is that they should "lean into their fears," or use their anxiety as an energy source to get them motivated to work hard, so anxiety as a kick in the butt to get you going. This is an old idea, that works s-o-m-e-t-i-m-e-s, and can be better than taking a pill -- for the right people. On this level, action and forward movement has a powerful healing effect, as in positive action = anti-phobic, and calming effects. Think of working out and it's psychic and psychological healing effects.

    But what about social anxiety (and in a sense anxiety is always social). A guy tries to approach a fantastic looking girl at a bar and it feels like a million volts are lighting up all the wrong cortex's of his brain, leaning into it might not help. Ha!

    It's amusing that in Neolithic times sacrifice was the major treatment for anxiety. Sacrifice is in many ways a sacrifice of the self in deference to the tribe or group. There's some kind of fight going on between the individual and the will to live, and dominance by the social groups belief in the person's place within society (usually a very small, puny place).
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Oh, I would recommend definitely keeping a choline source involved- my personal favorite is Alpha GPC. I also would still recommend 1500mg a day, but just spaced further. I don't know where the sources come from that state it has a half life of 2 hours, but I get the effects for 6-7 per 750mg.
    kisaj,

    Edit: Look below
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Oh, I would recommend definitely keeping a choline source involved- my personal favorite is Alpha GPC. I also would still recommend 1500mg a day, but just spaced further. I don't know where the sources come from that state it has a half life of 2 hours, but I get the effects for 6-7 per 750mg.
    kisaj,

    I have noticed a different feeling today that feels like more intensity and more mental energy. Yet it's early and this may be placebo effect. My main interests are in the ease of connecting dots to various wide ranging subjects, fluid memory (both short and long-term), and I would like to combine stronger intuitive grasp with greater logical detail at the same time. I'm not expecting much!

    My reading has been about this "revolution" in group thinking that has been happening lately. "Uncertainty" is just one of several books I've discovered that talk about these groups and how people can work together to reach much greater creative heights. This is a new direction for me as I've looked at group thinking with contempt previously. Individualism was what I believed in up to now. One of the ways they do it is to make sure the creatives and technical people interact daily in companies such as Pixar.
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    Regarding Stablon, I saw that Turkish site before but have never tried them. I once had an Indian source, but they were very unpredictable with service I've read so I hadn't tried them either. It's too bad it's not available for Rx here in the US. Because of that, it's totally legal to import though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Regarding Stablon, I saw that Turkish site before but have never tried them. I once had an Indian source, but they were very unpredictable with service I've read so I hadn't tried them either. It's too bad it's not available for Rx here in the US. Because of that, it's totally legal to import though.
    What intrigues me most about Stablon is the probable neuron repair and/or creation especially in the stressed areas of the brain. Lion's Mane does this through increasing NGF, and I believe that Stablon may do this even better. I'm interested in bacopa's long-term repair abilities on the brain and nerves too, but I've only used it a day or two at a time. Any of these noots or drugs capable of repairing burned out areas or creating new pathways with new brain cells will have lasting effects well beyond when we stop using them.

    A European website pharm seems to have intermittent sales where they go down to $31.50 for a 60 count bottle. And this site is said to be reliable by several LongeCity reviewers. But the last sale was over on May 31st. They are now charging $45 per 60 caps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I'm thinking of trying some of these products. I do use NRC Cabergolean right now and it has small doses of both DMAE and Huperzine A. It helped me concentrate a lot easier at the gym and in general but now I seem to have acclimated to that effect.
    DMAE and Huperzine-A both increase acetylcholine in the brain. Have you tried a combination of ALCAR and GPLC? ALCAR goes through the BBB and increases acetylcholine plus a couple of other thing such as enhancing the brain cells mitochondria. GPLC does many things for the rest of the body (including enhancing the mitochondria in the rest of the bodies cells), but it's fairly expensive and you need to take 4.5 grams or more pre-workout. The first increases brain energy, and the other increases body energy by a lot.
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    Alcar is the best combination of mental and physical energy imo. I take 500mg before the gym, run, or ride and never fatigue and have great mental focus. Read up on it and it is very popular for this reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuberman View Post
    What intrigues me most about Stablon is the probable neuron repair and/or creation especially in the stressed areas of the brain. Lion's Mane does this through increasing NGF, and I believe that Stablon may do this even better. I'm interested in bacopa's long-term repair abilities on the brain and nerves too, but I've only used it a day or two at a time. Any of these noots or drugs capable of repairing burned out areas or creating new pathways with new brain cells will have lasting effects well beyond when we stop using them.

    A European website pharm seems to have intermittent sales where they go down to $31.50 for a 60 count bottle. And this site is said to be reliable by several LongeCity reviewers. But the last sale was over on May 31st. They are now charging $45 per 60 caps.
    The longterm effects are definitely what makes Stablon so great. There are not many drugs out there that boast neuroplasticity either. $45 per 60 caps, that would last me around 10-12 days. I've done two long runs of this in the past and I remember them costing me over $130 per month.

    Deprenyl or caber don't even come close to the positive effects of Stablon either (for people mentioning them in here or other threads). Caber does nothing positive for me. Deprenyl is ok.. but has no substantial nootropic effect for me. I also don't really respond to ALCAR, piracetam and the like. I've given them proper test runs, but didn't reap any real benefits from them.
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    Sub. Lot to research hear.
    GAME ON! MOVAH FUKAZ!
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/231867-man-sports-gameday.html#post4047619
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Oh, I would recommend definitely keeping a choline source involved- my personal favorite is Alpha GPC. I also would still recommend 1500mg a day, but just spaced further. I don't know where the sources come from that state it has a half life of 2 hours, but I get the effects for 6-7 per 750mg.
    kisaj,

    I just got up from sleeping. I work nights, an overnight IT support job for a company that runs 24/7.

    I took 750mg of aniracetam with my fish oil and coconut oil, chasing it with coffee. I'll take second dose at beginning of work tonight. I also took 500mg of CDP.
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    I've been in IT on the support side for 17 years- that is really what is messing you up. haha
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    I've been in IT on the support side for 17 years- that is really what is messing you up. haha
    I worked day shift for two weeks last month covering for someone on vacation, and it was a mixed blessing. I got to see some people I like and talk to them. Yet there's also a few self-important manager types on days that I get to avoid on 3rd shift, and in fact, my usual shift is fairly easy as long as things are going well. And I know what to do when things go badly. Working days I slept better after adjusting, but had less motivation to workout. It's not likely I'm going to switch jobs for a while, (my answer to T-Bone), as at my age it's hard to stay in IT, even if you are fairly sharp. I do intend to either start my own thing or cut back to three days a week after reaching 65.

    I just got back from a good cardio workout (50 minutes of cycling), but no weights. I enjoy having tons of energy from my workouts.

    I'll take my second aniracetam just before starting work tonight.
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    Since I'll be heading back to school soon, anyone have any thoughts on a good noot stack under $~40 that will overlap an 8week andro drive run?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tilldeath View Post
    Since I'll be heading back to school soon, anyone have any thoughts on a good noot stack under $~40 that will overlap an 8week andro drive run?
    Alcar in bulk and Huperzine-A should help, and they are pretty inexpensive.The aniracetam I'm using only runs $15 per month, so you could do that with a choline source and stay within budget.

    The two ideas that I gave along with some stims though will get you excellent results for study purposes. There are likely to be several others that can keep you under budget.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    The longterm effects are definitely what makes Stablon so great. There are not many drugs out there that boast neuroplasticity either. $45 per 60 caps, that would last me around 10-12 days. I've done two long runs of this in the past and I remember them costing me over $130 per month.

    Deprenyl or caber don't even come close to the positive effects of Stablon either (for people mentioning them in here or other threads). Caber does nothing positive for me. Deprenyl is ok.. but has no substantial nootropic effect for me. I also don't really respond to ALCAR, piracetam and the like. I've given them proper test runs, but didn't reap any real benefits from them.
    GutterPump,
    I ordered a couple of books dealing with neuroplasticity from Amazon. Many people working in these areas today have a dislike of using drugs or even supplements to help. It seems the pendulum has swung back to the anti-drug, anti-pharmacy. That doesn't bother me as I'm just looking for insight and will ignore their prejudices. I DO feel that some of the drugs and supplements are a great benefit to people who need them and even others that can be helped by them.

    One thing is obvious, if a person is lucky enough to lead a fairly mellow life, and has loving family and friends around, then that persons brain is likely to have a greater neuroplasticity well into an older age. The Oxytocin hormone system (and other relaxed, bonding hormone systems) are much more forgiving then the constant fight or flight hormones. But how many of us have been able to lead such a life?
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    Certainly not myself. I live by myself in NYC with no family in the US at all - spending the majority of my time working. I would say I live an extremely stressful life, with mainly just myself as a support system. My family is very spread out and far away.

    I can connect somewhat with the anti-drug mentality, but I am not against them when needed. I have actually been considering a change in career and going back to school, specifically to study Osteopathic Medicine.
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    I just found this thread and am very interested in this subject.
    I had a little taste of "NZT" effects with the AndroDrive but didn't like the side effects (High blood pressure)

    In searching for products I found this stack on Amazon.
    DMAA - 10g
    Sulbutiamine - 100g
    Pramiracetam - 25g
    Piracetam - 150g
    Caffeine - 30g
    Choline CDP - 150g
    Aniracetam - 75g
    Oxiracetam - 75g

    They are claiming it is a 90 day supply for about $320.

    I may get it and also some Noopept for experimenting.

    Thoughts?

    Red.
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    Sounds very, very weak and just a ****tail of ingredients that are underdosed and way over priced.

    For instance:
    1500mg a day of ani is recommended
    1500-3000mg a day of piracetam
    Choline- I take 600mg of alpha GPC and is stronger than choline cdp. Most Choline supps are between 250-500mg
    DMAA is now illegal to sell and is just nasty stuff anyway. Just a cheap amphetamine.
    Caffeine- 30mg? What is that, like a 1/4 cup of coffee?
    etc,etc....

    I would not waste my money on that crappy sounding product.
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    I'm glad I came here first!!!

    I was curious about the caffeine myself.. I mean I'm already drinking 2 to 3 coffees a day and I thought there was about 100 to 150mg caffeine in a coffee.
    Interesting.

    Thanks Kisaj!!

    Red.
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    I am making an assumption that you meant mg and not g? If this is in grams, than obviously this is a better deal, but I don't know how you would separate everything into the right doses without time and effort.
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    I have a scale that will go down to 0.001 gram. No problem to weigh out the dose. I also have capsules if I wanted to make a weeks worth or something.
    Here is their recommended dosing:
    25-50mg DMAA
    250-750mg Sulbutiamine
    100-200mg Caffeine Anhydrous
    500mg-1g Choline CDP
    250mg Pramiracetam (morning only)
    750mg - 1.5g Aniracetam (morning only)
    1-3g Piracetam (afternoon only)
    750mg - 1.5g Oxiracetam (afternoon only)

    Red
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    What is a good recommended stack for a beginner??

    Red
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    Ah, that is different. Personally, I would just throw the DMAA away. But that is me. Also, I would not stack all the racetams together like that, especially in the beginning. They all have a different effect and people react differently to each one. I would start with one and run a full month before moving to another. If there are any unwanted feelings or things you don't like- you won't know what is doing it. That does sound like a better deal, but still expensive.

    For me, I hate Piracetam and it doesn't work well with me. Irritable, tired, foggy, etc. Oxiracetam was like huperzine. Aniracetam is the best thing ever. I wouldn't have known that unless I took them by themselves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    I am making an assumption that you meant mg and not g? If this is in grams, than obviously this is a better deal, but I don't know how you would separate everything into the right doses without time and effort.
    Yeah kisaj,

    That's 333.33 mg of caffeine per day, but there's several reason why you are correct.

    Red,
    I believe all these racetams should initially be tested out one at a time to see which ones effect you and how. The Piracetam in this is underdosed. The DMAA is a bad idea, and could give you high BP too. You and I already get plenty of caffeine through coffee. the Sulbutiamine is dosed at about right, but perhaps a bit low for every day. The Aniracetam is dosed at about 60% of what you need every day. I don't know about the Oxiracetam, but a lot of people either chose oxi or ani -- not both. The Pramiracetam is also dosed at around 60% of what is needed for a 90 day supply, but it is supposed to stack well with either oxi or ani.

    The thing is to at first try these one at a time at decent dose levels. Three of these racetams stacked together with some of the blood brain barrier crossing B vitamins like Sulbutiamine could likely be great, but don't jump into unknown waters full force. Example: Sulbutiamine acts like a pretty strong brain stimulant for me and I get a crash effect from it after 10-12 hours that I don't like at all.

    The CDP choline in this is decent and not underdosed.

    It was necessary to be cautious with the Ando series and you should also take things gentle with these.
  

  
 

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