The perpetual Cycle
- 05-18-2012, 03:42 AM
The perpetual Cycle
Ok, this is a thought i had to eliminate some of the problems of the ups and downs of cycling steroids and keep your test levels elevated year around with no suppression. I know this is my second post but hear this out. Just getting back into the game at 36 years old now and was thinking of going on cycle. And i remembered back to when i was big into it and was not looking forward to the ''let down" after your cycle is over even with proper PCT. So this is my idea. Feel free to tell me your thoughts but remember its just a thought. This doesnt have any certainty.
50mg of test,10mg Toremifen,natty test boosters- ed
Day 5 and 6
100mg clomid,2nd day- 50mg clomid
10mg Tormifen- ed
test boosters- ed
- 05-18-2012, 07:28 AM
No. Just no. Dont do that.
- 05-18-2012, 11:15 AM
05-18-2012, 11:19 AM
Oh, and i didnt really mean that it HAD to be forever but just much much longer. Maybe 6 months on 6 months off. Year on 6 months off.
05-21-2012, 03:26 AM
05-21-2012, 03:35 AM
Nothing? Nobody? I thought I would at least get yelled at. Thoughts???
05-24-2012, 03:37 PM
did you make this up yourself?
05-24-2012, 05:11 PM
[QUOTE=v4lu3s;3400510]did you make this up yourself?[/QUOTE
Yeah. I did.
05-24-2012, 10:43 PM
Keep reading before you harm yourself.
05-25-2012, 06:08 AM
I have done my homework. Dont worry about that. But thanks. I know Its nothing you will see anywhere as it is an original thought. Mini Cycles, your in and out before the negative feedback starts. Just a thought
05-25-2012, 11:05 AM
This is not a cycle. Doses that large of clomid are very likely to cause bad sides. Toremifen wont really do as much as you think and most test boosters are not going to be great anyway.
With clomid and toremifene you need to build up blood levels to an effective dose and sustained levels, it wont be effective a day or two at a time.
Keep doing homework, you got more to learn.
05-26-2012, 02:01 AM
you completely missed the point and made untrue statements. plus the attitude/negativity doesn't help ****.
05-27-2012, 11:13 AM
feel free to actually refute any statement you feel is untrue.
toremifene does not have any conclusive evidence that it does raise testosterone significantly, though it is a great serm.
clomid doses at 100mg a day are stupid high and a throwback to the days of less knowledge. all medications have a range that sides outweigh the benefits and 100mg a day is definitely into the range that the sides increase rapidly. guys who have hypogonadism are using clomid effectively at 10-25 mg a every 2 to 3 days.
"natural" test boosters are questionable at best.
what you are proposing has more risks than benefits. if you think that truth is negative then you have a lot of growing up to do, especially at your age.
you would do better to optimize testosterone levels through diet, lifestyle and sleep habits if you ask me rather than turning to questionable products and pharmaceuticals, especially ones as little researched as torem.
05-27-2012, 11:13 AM
also at your size some food might help too.
05-27-2012, 01:23 PM
05-28-2012, 01:50 AM
why dont you just go on TRT? it's a safer way to stay on all year
05-28-2012, 05:10 PM
you got a lot to come back from then, and honestly i think that doing it the way you are talking is NOT good. Get yourself back to where you were before all that happened. The trauma from the injuries, the stress from divorce, the loss of a career and going to have a huge impact on your ability to be healthy enough to grow and get stronger.
With all that has happened to you adding a bunch of medications the way you have suggested may very well mask real problems that could have been other wise fixed. I can understand wanting to get back even faster, I spent the past 6 years busting my ass in the gym and thinking i just had terrible genetics, and come to find out I had great testosterone levels for a 90 year old man. I spent over a year reading and asking questions only about trt and some of the stuff I learned finally convinced me to go on trt and i have made more physical changes in 4 months than i made in years. If I had not been convinced it is a physical problem then I would not have pursued this path and would have worked even harder on diet, stress free living, great sleep and making sure that I did not have allergies or other underlying conditions that were harming me. I am willing to bet that if you were to do a serious lab work up you would find a bunch of stuff that is slowing you down, especially with all the stress you have suffered.
05-28-2012, 07:30 PM
05-29-2012, 02:25 AM
The 470 is not bad in itself but estrogen or cortisol could be high or low etc. I wish my natural level was that good. with everything else in balance you would never suspect you had mid range levels but without balance you could have symptoms of low test even with levels over 700.
05-29-2012, 11:33 AM
06-09-2012, 03:41 AM
06-10-2012, 02:56 AM
What is "pulse" cycling? Pulsing is a method of dosing that is intentionally designed to avoid potential long-term side effects such as HPTA suppression and liver stress. This technique was originally developed in an effort to prevent the usual HPAA suppression experienced during long-term corticosteroid therapy in children. With pulse therapy, it was observed that the serious long-term side effects of chronic oral treatment were often prevented, and the short-term side effects like acne and mineral retention were typically much milder. This can also allow for higher doses to be used since the dosing is less frequent. Starting with this template, if one normally takes a product at 30 mg/day, that equals a total intake of 210 mg/week. While pulsing, one might typically take 40 mg of that same product on work out days only, 3 times per week. That calculates to 120 mg/week total, which is 90 mg less than usual. This provides the needed benefits of the product at arguably the most crucial metabolic times, which are just before and just after a work out. This offers a means of possibly attenuating the endocrine suppression that one might otherwise encounter on a standard cycle. In many cases, a conventional post cycle therapy should not be required after a typical 4 week pulse. However, while pulses of 6-8 weeks are permissible, a conventional post cycle therapy may still be prudent for some individuals. Idiosyncrasy seems to play a big role in regard to tolerance of duration, so general predictions obviously become tricky as duration increases.
Theoretically, if one doses every day in perfectly spaced intervals, one should achieve 100% effects, 100% short-term sides, and 100% long-term sides. If one doses every other day like the pulse protocol, one might better anticipate 60% effects, 75% short-term sides but only about 40% of the long-term sides. This means that if one would have gained 10 pounds on a standard 1 month cycle, one might instead only gain about 6 pounds per month pulsing. Since the time on is roughly only half when pulsing, the total length of the cycle can be doubled to basically 2 months. Using the same calculation, the net result would be a gain of 12 pounds over 2 months, instead of the 10 pound gain expected from the 1 month standard cycle. That means a greater net gain of 2 pounds per cycle, and perhaps a more permanent gain due to the slower rate of acquisition and longer time of reinforcement! For this reason, pulsing can be very economical on the body as well as the wallet, and offer a desirable alternative for conservative veterans just looking to stay in shape, or potential new comers exploring additional safety measures.
There are three common types of pulse:
1) EOD dosing (3-4 times per week)
2) 2 days on / 2 days off
3) 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off (2 wks is the longest viable on time consideration, no longer)
Depending on one's workout schedule, one of these options may offer optimal pulsing efficiency. On average, effective doses may typically be around 1.5x the normal daily dose of a standard cycle, and these doses are taken very close to one other. It's not essential that the last dose be administered before 6 pm, but the earlier the better for reducing suppression potential. Half the total dose can be taken pre work out, and the other half taken post work out. If an odd numbered dose is used, the greater of the 2 doses might best be taken pre work out. However, when pulsing non-methylated or fast acting supplements, the greater dose would instead be best utilized post work out based on half-life considerations. Individuals who are extremely sensitive to shutdown may even prefer to take the entire dose pre work out. When pulsing, dosing at least 3 day per week but not more than 4 day per week should foster optimal results.
There are a few miscellaneous nutrition considerations that would be wise to keep in mind. Having a quality, high carb/calorie post work out meal (or shake) is important to proper recovery, and ingesting sufficient protein especially on the off days doesn't hurt either. A cortisol antagonist like low dose DHEA (25-50 mg) may be helpful for slow healers or hard gainers. Some studies show that cortisol peaks in the morning and again in the mid afternoon, which might therefore be the ideal times for an anti-cort. An herbal or AI based test-boosting supplement used nightly (or at least on one's off nights) might prove very effective as additional insurance to discourage the possibility of suppression. SERMs with long half-lives probably require extra consideration and caution. One may observe that testicular volume and/or testosterone levels reset slightly above previous baseline at the end of 2 consecutive off days, or at the end of the cycle itself. This phenomenon is called 'bounce' back. This seemingly paradoxical bounce appears to reflect the body's short-term homeostasis effort, and acts somewhat like a built-in pct with this method. It's also good to remember that the smaller number of dose exposures likely means faster liver clearance of your supplement. Liver ancillaries (like healthy oils and anti-oxidants) are not contraindicated, but Milk Thistle in high doses could act counter productive to gains. Therefore, if you elect to use liver protectants, reserving them for off days only might be good middle ground. As always, I suggest that one only consider using legal, commercially available nutritional supplements, and always consult a physician prior to use of any supplement. Cycle safe! (This was wrote by Dr.D)
Example of a 3x/wk pulse M,W,F:
You see there! Im not the only one with this thought. It's only logical. My first idea on this subject is much different than his but same concept. And i must admit he has the safer plan. Does it work? Well thats why we joined this forum to expand our knowledge and share with others not to bash and belittle people. YOU my friend have a lot of growing up to do! If I was you id be embarrassed. But still wish the best for you as I am a mature adult.
Last edited by TMF LOVE; 06-10-2012 at 03:07 AM. Reason: for obvious reasons
06-10-2012, 08:58 AM
apparently you do not pay attention to current research at all.
doses of clomid at 12.5mg every other day are extremely effective at raising testosterone without any side effects. doses of 100 mg are into the range that is KNOWN to cause side effects such as visual tracers and emotional behavior due to the fact that clomid has estrogenic effects in doses that large.
As far as embarrassed i am not embarrassed to actually tell someone that throwing a bunch of crap into their system and hoping for the best is putting themselves at risk (now if I walked around spouting bro science I would be embarrassed). Testosterone "boosters" are a joke, they are not proven to work, and even the ones with a study or two behind them seem to not be effective on everyone, and cost a lot. You can base your assumptions on old school roid head bro science or you can look at what people are doing now, people who actually track their results with frequent blood labs and direction from medical scientists and doctors.
If you are dead set on being a medical experiment at least use some of the brain that you have. Apply some scientific method, control, and common sense to the situation.
For example stop use of anything hormonal for 4-8 weeks, and assess yourself, both with lab work and with how you feel.
Then add ONE substance at a low dose and go back for labs 4-6 weeks later to assess your bodies response, also assess how you feel. Then increase that dose of that ONE substance. Go back for labs in 4-6 weeks and again assess how you feel. Repeat this until you get side effects and then assess side effects versus labs and feeling. Once you reach the balance point back the dose of that one substance off slightly and record that. Stop the ONE substance, and wait 4 weeks. Then repeat the process with your second substance. Keep repeating with all the test boosters and more until you know how your body reacts to each one and in what doses. Then start the process with 2 substances in your "dosing" schedule and learn what works for you.
btw if you think pulsing is so effective then why is it NOT commonly used in the medical world? pulsing just reduces the effective blood plasma level of the medication/drug and is going to be similar to taking a smaller dose. Pulsing will give you a higher peak with lower troughs, while a smaller dose will give you lower peaks and troughs but both will have a similar average level with the end result of less sides and less effect.
06-10-2012, 11:26 AM
Im not taking anything right now! IT WAS JUST A THOUGHT GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SCULL. Did you read Dr.d. idea at all. Its people like that and myself that have created new things. They are well read on a subject and can think outside the box to find better ways of doing things. If it wasnt for people like that we wouldnt have jack ****. I have never had a single side effect with clomid. now i will say this I have been out of the game for some time because of a lot of bad luck and was not lifting or reading/learning new things. But i stand true with my statement which was why bash somebody instead of helping??? You have an attitude and that is immature. You need to get off your high horse and get some decency. We will just have to agree to disagree. Bye
06-19-2012, 12:22 PM
06-19-2012, 01:18 PM
I dont see any bad mouthing... you asked a serious question and he is posing a serious rebuttal. The lack of maturity is not on his end.
Log of EPIC by FRL - http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/202576-should-epic-frl.html
06-19-2012, 01:53 PM
^ completely agree.
This isn't a anti-bullying forum even though it seems to be a popular subject now days. If someone disagrees with you on this forum they tell you. It is regulated in a sense of they ***** the curse words. Theres your regulation. Otherwise man up and take it with a grain of salt.
06-21-2012, 08:27 PM
06-21-2012, 08:29 PM
06-22-2012, 12:46 AM
06-22-2012, 09:03 AM
brb 145lbs and e-thugging! OH NO!
serious brah ... chill... you asked, he answered, so he was a little tough on you... pull up the panties and take it for its worth. If your feelings are getting hurt this easy maybe lay off the estrogen shakes...
Log of EPIC by FRL - http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/202576-should-epic-frl.html
06-23-2012, 04:21 PM
06-23-2012, 08:10 PM
you claim i have insulted you yet I see nothing in any of my posts that is derogatory, sure it is blunt at times, but that is how I am. If you can only resort to name calling and screaming that you have been victimized you are going to have a hard time on the internet. Personally I think what you are trying to do, especially considering the VERY pertinent personal and medical history, I think its very dangerous and more likely to cause harm than good. it is one thing to experiment on yourself based on theories when you are at 100%, but when you are not its just a lot of big chances. That's why I even suggested a controlled approach to see how YOU respond to the things you want to try. Honestly with the total testosterone levels you have the problem/s that you are trying to address will most likely not see significant improvement without addressing everything else first.
You do not have to like what I say, and you can choose to refute and argue and learn, which is fine, or you can cry fowl because I do not agree with you. Its your call, and I think your response says more than anything I could ever say.
06-26-2012, 04:53 PM
You're giving good advice, this dude just thinks he's some gifted mind who is innovating with modern science. He's not, but he can't handle the truth so maybe he should go back to the fairytale he poofed fromOriginally Posted by v4lu3s
06-30-2012, 01:06 AM
06-30-2012, 10:19 AM
Toremifen,clomid,are accomplishing the same thing just different medications and use different pathways to increase your testosterone levels compared to using exagenous test.
From experience if you use low doses of test the shut down will take a long time to occur because by taking 50mg even 2x a week you keep your test levels within what our bodies deem normal so it sees no reason to shut it down completely. Eventually you will get shut down but it will take a long time prob months.
Torem and clomid will shut you down very quickly within weeks because you by passing the LH from pituitary to your nads by using clomid and torem. Once the pituitary sees that the game is over.
You better off to low dose of test if anything
If using clomid,HCG,nolva, torem was a better choice to cycle and HRT everyone would be doing it but it's not. It creates more problems for your body than just using plain test.
07-03-2012, 10:47 AM
07-04-2012, 05:07 PM
No one flamed anyone. But you do tend to act like a hysterical woman at times, especially when confronted with logic. For some reason you like to respond with screaming and crying rather than factual peer reviewed science discussion. Maybe you should get your estrogen checked.
07-04-2012, 08:34 PM
dude u take so wrong. just leave it be. You remind of my ex wife. You can't fix stupid
03-21-2013, 10:28 AM
You're a true pioneer and visionary and I sincerely hope you follow through with your original plan. I have no doubt you will be very impressed with yourself and your brilliant idea. And when that day comes, you can come back to this thread and tell us how it went.
Wattayasay big boy, are you going to lift up that skirt, grab your balls, and prove us all wrong or just sit there and whine about how someone with a brain is like the girl that got away?
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