48 & Epi?

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    48 & Epi?


    I'm new to this forum and looking for advice. I've been working out consistently for 6 yrs. I'm 48, 5'10", 155, bf 16%. I work out 4x a week. My diet is pretty clean. I've researched the heck out of PH's and my head spins from it. I want to put on some lean muscle so I decided to try a cycle of EPI because from what I've read it's one of the least harsh. I wont' lie, I'm nervous about it this will be my first cycle. Here's what I have planned:

    cycle assist/cycle support 2 week preload through cycle and pct. I have one bottle of the cycle assist and one tub of the cycle support. Will start with the cycle assist and then take the cycle support.

    CYCLE

    Epi 30/30/30/30
    shaklee multi
    vitamin c 500mg
    vitamin d - 1,000 mg
    zinc - 15 mg
    Flax Seed Oil - 1 gram
    Omega 3 - 1 gram

    PCT

    above listed vitamins and supps
    Erase
    Recycle
    Nolva 20/20/10/10

    I can't decide if I need the Nolva or if it's overkill and will cause sides. I would really appreciate any advice especially for PCT. It seems no matter what forums I look into some people say SERMS a must others say OTC PCT is just fine. Would also like to know if I made a good choice for 1st cycle.

    I also take crestor and dutasteride (trying to keep my hair..lol)

    Thanks guys!

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    I'll just comment on the PCT since I'm sure more folk closer to your age will have better advice

    Perfect!!

    I always dose nolva at 20,20,10,10 since it is just a tad harsh and there's no proof double the dose is anymore effective.

    On PH runs I always take cycle support and fish oil, milk thistle, and with "real" stuff I add in saw palmetto, but since you got both support -AND- assist I'd say your set!

    If you get back pumps taurine and gatorade help....I went up to 50 with epi and didn't notice much more gain than staying at 40, but the back pumps and lethargy sucked bad. I went 5 weeks and was pretty impressed!

    Split the dose but do higher dose in AM, so 30mg would be 20 AM, 10 PM....that's about all I can really think of ATM...good luck!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by wannabbtr View Post
    I've been working out consistently for 6 yrs. I'm 48, 5'10", 155, bf 16%. I work out 4x a week. My diet is pretty clean.
    If you've consistently trained for 6 years and have achieved 155lbs and 16%BF at 5'10" what will you be doing differently to allow you to put on weight?

    Personally, if at your age, after 6 years of consistent training, you have not learned to eat well enough to be at least 190lbs I would not be taking hormones of any kind.

    Although, I would consider going to a doctor and getting a full male hormone panel to see if you are presently testosterone deficient.

    My point is that if you are unable to gain any more weight than 155lbs by now, the hormone use could set you back a great deal in your overall health.

    I would get a baseline bloodwork and learn to eat better before considering hormones.
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    wayneferd - thanks so much for the advice. i really appreciate it! i plan on getting the taurine before i start, probably won't be until January as i might be tempted to drink over the holidays...LOL. thanks again!
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    david dunn - thanks for your advice. it is appreciated. i started out 6 years ago at a fat 182. i've eaten the way my trainer wanted until i couldn't eat any more (i started at 150 w/ her). i did gain a little more muscle but also gained some more fat. my body just seems to settle between 155 -160. i can't imagine being 190 on just diet alone - not saying it's impossible, just that i haven't experienced that kind of gain. perhaps i've done something wrong. i think part of it is genetics - i weighed 135 - 140 most of my life. my brother and i were always skinny boys.

    thanks again - i've read many of your posts and can tell you have a lot of experience. i am going to go check w/ a doctor before i proceed. i was just trying to get everything lined up. i'm wise enough to realize i don't want to screw up my body. please let me know if you have any further advice and thanks again!
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    I don't see supplemental magnesium listed on your list. Magnesium, along with zinc, become even more critical as we age.
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    dsade - thanks for you reply. i'm currently taking a cal, mag, zinc supp which i'm almost out of. i also take extra zinc. i was going to get a mag supp because i read the cal can interfere w/ zinc absorbing. how much mag do you suggest? i know it's in some of the pre and intra w/o supps i take.

    thanks again.
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    There is always the propensity for us to settle at our genetic status quot. Unless you have eaten and trained to exceed that you certainly will not.

    There is also the issue of andropause that most men are susceptible to at our age. If over the last 6 years beginning at 42 you have still not accrued much more lbm than you already have it is quite possible that this could be the culprit. Of course it may not be an issue at all. That is why I suggest you confirm your androgen status before undertaking the use of steroids.

    Otherwise the use of OTC steroids could be one small step forward and one large step backward with regard to longevity and hormone balance as you age.

    Best of luck!
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    Quote Originally Posted by wannabbtr View Post
    dsade - thanks for you reply. i'm currently taking a cal, mag, zinc supp which i'm almost out of. i also take extra zinc. i was going to get a mag supp because i read the cal can interfere w/ zinc absorbing. how much mag do you suggest? i know it's in some of the pre and intra w/o supps i take.

    thanks again.
    Most Mag supplements use Magnesium Oxide, which has a very low absorption rate.

    If taking this form, I would take at least a gram a day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wannabbtr View Post
    i've eaten the way my trainer wanted until i couldn't eat any more (i started at 150 w/ her). i did gain a little more muscle but also gained some more fat. my body just seems to settle between 155 -160. i can't imagine being 190 on just diet alone - not saying it's impossible, just that i haven't experienced that kind of gain. perhaps i've done something wrong. i think part of it is genetics - i weighed 135 - 140 most of my life. my brother and i were always skinny boys.
    Ok so heres the thing you aren't quite getting. If you naturally settle to 155ish, and your normal eating maintains you at 155, guess what even after you cycle steroids and get up to 175 you'll be at in a few months? 155. Even if you somehow manage to eat enough during the cycle to make significant mass gains during it, if you return to eating what maintains 155, you'll drift back to 155.
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    david dunn - thanks for your further info. when i started training again at 42 i was 182, not sure how high bf was but much higher than now. i trained on my own until i got my weight down to 150. 3 years ago i started w/ a trainer who put me on a "work out diet" to lower bf an gain muscle. i definitely got my bg down and gained muscle. when i stopped w/ her my bf was 17 - 18% (same as now) and i weighed went up to 160. in the last year, my bf is now down to 16% and my weight stays between 155 - 158. i can tell my muscles are bigger. however, i don't seem to be able to gain any more muscle. i can do more cardio and get my bf down but i just don't seem to be able to add any more muscle. i seem to have hit a plateau. i thought perhaps a mild supp. like Epi would give me a little boost.

    thanks again for your knowledge.
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    easyejl - thanks for your info. i have changed my diet in the last couple of weeks and started eating an extra meal every day, plus adding in more protein, ie eggs an meat. so far, i've only added 1 lb. what does one do if they feel like they can't eat anymore. i could eat one more meal later in the day, i try to have my last meal at 6:30 and my last protein w/ pb and some fruit at 7:30 - 8:00. i go to bed at 10 - 10:30 so i'm afraid to eat any later, my doc says it's not good for the cholesterol.
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    Well, the thing to do then is to start looking at caloric density of what you are eating, and make changes to make it all work out better. For a super simple example, 2 tablespoons of peanut butter have around 180 calories, 2 tablespoons of brown rice has maybe 30. Same with plenty of other choices you make mealwise. 8oz of chicken breast or fish has less calories than 8oz of ground beef. Probably be easier to make more specific suggestions if you gave a sample day's diet
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    Quote Originally Posted by wannabbtr View Post
    easyejl - thanks for your info. i have changed my diet in the last couple of weeks and started eating an extra meal every day, plus adding in more protein, ie eggs an meat. so far, i've only added 1 lb. what does one do if they feel like they can't eat anymore. i could eat one more meal later in the day, i try to have my last meal at 6:30 and my last protein w/ pb and some fruit at 7:30 - 8:00. i go to bed at 10 - 10:30 so i'm afraid to eat any later, my doc says it's not good for the cholesterol.
    Your doc sounds like an idiot.

    Get yourself a casein protein or blend (Ultra Peptide 2.0 is great at bedtime) and drink it before bed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Your doc sounds like an idiot.

    Get yourself a casein protein or blend (Ultra Peptide 2.0 is great at bedtime) and drink it before bed.
    He doesn't have a problem w/ a protein drink. He doesn't want me to eat a meal 2 to 3 hours before I go to bed. I try the Ultra Peptide 2.0 - thanks for the idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wannabbtr View Post
    He doesn't have a problem w/ a protein drink. He doesn't want me to eat a meal 2 to 3 hours before I go to bed. I try the Ultra Peptide 2.0 - thanks for the idea.
    I understand that....but his reasoning is ridiculous. By all means carb restrict before bed...but you're looking at what...14-16 hours with an empty stomach?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Well, the thing to do then is to start looking at caloric density of what you are eating, and make changes to make it all work out better. For a super simple example, 2 tablespoons of peanut butter have around 180 calories, 2 tablespoons of brown rice has maybe 30. Same with plenty of other choices you make mealwise. 8oz of chicken breast or fish has less calories than 8oz of ground beef. Probably be easier to make more specific suggestions if you gave a sample day's diet
    Hey thanks for the suggestions - I actually just started adding 1 tbs of PB to my protein shakes and started having beef at lunch more frequently instead of chicken or turkey and also started having more at dinner. I'm not a big fish eater.

    Here a normal day for me in the last 1 -2 weeks:

    First thing upon waking a protein shake. Then 3 cups of coffee w/ 1 tsp. sugar and milk.

    Breakfast: 1 cup of high fiber cereal w/ milk or bowl of oatmeal w/ a little maple syrup. 1/4 cup egg whites w/ 2 eggs or just 4 eggs scrambled.

    workout

    post workout - glass of chocolate milk, greek yogurt w/ fruit.

    25 - 30 mins. later - turkey,ham or tuna on whole wheat w/ slice of cheese and a piece of fruit. 3-4 days a week 1/2 chicken breast or 4 ozs hamburger patty w/ serving of green vegetable and about 1/4 cup quinoa.

    30 mins later - protein and PB shake and 2 ozs of walnuts and almonds

    2 - 3 hours later - dinner

    Chicken or beef or pork chop w/ green vegetable and quinoa or brown rice.

    8:00pm protein shake w/ PB sometimes more walnuts and almonds.

    Thanks so much for your help w/ this. I really appreciate it! I've tried to use the diet tracker on here but it's not working.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    I understand that....but his reasoning is ridiculous. By all means carb restrict before bed...but you're looking at what...14-16 hours with an empty stomach?
    I think I agree w/ you, I should just restrict carbs. I've been having my last shake at 8:00. I'm usually up at 8:00 so yeah like 12-13 hours empty stomach.

    You guys on here are great. I really appreciate all your help. I've tried a couple of other sites, they weren't very helpful.
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    the easy and pleasant to add things I see would be adding some walnut or almond pieces to the morning cereal/oatmeal, and adding a tablespoon of olive oil to the quinoa before eating it.

    The other possibility is to start just slowly increasing portion sizes at each meal, add 1 extra egg, move up to a 1/3 lb burger patty, 1/2 cup of quinoa, etc. (not all the same day)
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    the easy and pleasant to add things I see would be adding some walnut or almond pieces to the morning cereal/oatmeal, and adding a tablespoon of olive oil to the quinoa before eating it.

    The other possibility is to start just slowly increasing portion sizes at each meal, add 1 extra egg, move up to a 1/3 lb burger patty, 1/2 cup of quinoa, etc. (not all the same day)
    I'll try those ideas! There easy to do. The larger portions is where I'll have trouble but I'll see what I can do. I'm not eating quite as much as I was w/ my trainer, I just remember always feeling like I couldn't eat any more. She sounded like someone's grandmother - "you need to eat!" LOL

    Thanks again, you guys on here are great!
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    is dutasteride like finastride by any chance?

    I read bad things about finastride and DHT, if so.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynaferd View Post
    is dutasteride like finastride by any chance?

    I read bad things about finastride and DHT, if so.....
    It's the generic of Avodart. So yes, it's similar to finastride. Is there something I need to be aware of?

    Thanks for helping.
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    Well I thought so, but I guess its mainly a sex drive issue...not so much your lack of gains I spose, but this is from another thread on another site....and something about higher estrogen levels, but dunno how true it to be, or how to put 2 and 2 together I guess, since it really hasn't a thing to do with your original post, LOL. Oh well, something else to talk about!!


    -------------------------------------------------------------

    I was just going to mention about finasteride. Heard many horror stories from ppl where their DHT levels was totally f'ed up because finasteride destroyed the enzyme responsible for the DHT conversion. No DHT no sex drive! Be very careful with that crap once that enzyme is damaged your sex drive is pretty much gone and you cant really get it back.
    Do some research....some of these side effects are ireversable once the damage occurs. Im not trying to scare you just for you to know the risks if you dont know them already!

    DHT Side Effects
    There are three main side effects noted by men who use DHT blockers. The first is a decreased sex drive. Since most men are worried about how hair loss affects their relationships this would not be a good tradeoff. Men also report a difficulty in achieving orgasm and decreased sperm production. These side effects may or may not be worth it to you.

    ------------------------------
    True story:

    I give a f**K!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynaferd View Post
    Well I thought so, but I guess its mainly a sex drive issue...not so much your lack of gains I spose, but this is from another thread on another site....and something about higher estrogen levels, but dunno how true it to be, or how to put 2 and 2 together I guess, since it really hasn't a thing to do with your original post, LOL. Oh well, something else to talk about!!


    -------------------------------------------------------------

    I was just going to mention about finasteride. Heard many horror stories from ppl where their DHT levels was totally f'ed up because finasteride destroyed the enzyme responsible for the DHT conversion. No DHT no sex drive! Be very careful with that crap once that enzyme is damaged your sex drive is pretty much gone and you cant really get it back.
    Do some research....some of these side effects are ireversable once the damage occurs. Im not trying to scare you just for you to know the risks if you dont know them already!

    DHT Side Effects
    There are three main side effects noted by men who use DHT blockers. The first is a decreased sex drive. Since most men are worried about how hair loss affects their relationships this would not be a good tradeoff. Men also report a difficulty in achieving orgasm and decreased sperm production. These side effects may or may not be worth it to you.

    ------------------------------
    Holy S**t! I was aware that it might cause lower sex drive, I was told in a very low percentage of people, and that if it did most reversed in a couple of months. I had not heard that it could cause permanent damage. I've been taking it for about 7.5 months and have not noticed a difference in anything other than my hair not falling out like it was. Perhaps I should stop taking it - I'd rather lose my hair than have those other problems!

    Thanks for the info. Can you tell me where you read that so I can check it out?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Most Mag supplements use Magnesium Oxide, which has a very low absorption rate.

    If taking this form, I would take at least a gram a day.
    Go for the transdermal magnesium oil instead of oral, huge increase in absorption and no gut issues.

    Mag oil is the best supplement I've ever discovered, for many many reasons
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Go for the transdermal magnesium oil instead of oral, huge increase in absorption and no gut issues.

    Mag oil is the best supplement I've ever discovered, for many many reasons
    I have a big jug at the office.

    I mix it into my personal Eviscerate bottle. GREAT stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Go for the transdermal magnesium oil instead of oral, huge increase in absorption and no gut issues.

    Mag oil is the best supplement I've ever discovered, for many many reasons
    Thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to check it out. Is Mag oil the product name or brand name?
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    it's just short for magnesium oil. There's a few brands online, I just grab it on amazon. You can get the squirt bottles and then the large refill jugs. I just spray on as much as I want at night, tops of feet and all over legs mostly. Inner thighs and tops of feet are the best though for absorption
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    it's just short for magnesium oil. There's a few brands online, I just grab it on amazon. You can get the squirt bottles and then the large refill jugs. I just spray on as much as I want at night, tops of feet and all over legs mostly. Inner thighs and tops of feet are the best though for absorption
    I did a quick search on nutraplanet but did see any. I have not gotten around to looking further, but I will. Thanks for tip. It sounds great and I'm def going to try it.
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    No problem. Not sure if they carry it, but if they did, I would definitely be buying it from them.

    It's the type of supplement that gives immediate results in some areas, but the true results don't really shine until months of use (cellular saturation), so it's good to keep it up consistently
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    Quote Originally Posted by wannabbtr View Post
    Holy S**t! I was aware that it might cause lower sex drive, I was told in a very low percentage of people, and that if it did most reversed in a couple of months. I had not heard that it could cause permanent damage. I've been taking it for about 7.5 months and have not noticed a difference in anything other than my hair not falling out like it was. Perhaps I should stop taking it - I'd rather lose my hair than have those other problems!

    Thanks for the info. Can you tell me where you read that so I can check it out?
    Here's a link to wikipedia with probably all the info one could stand, LOL...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finasteride
    True story:

    I give a f**K!!
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    BBB's Avatar
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    Personally, I would avoid Epi. Epi targets ER Beta receptors. From everything I have read, it appears that ER beta plays a protective role in prostate cancer. Therefore products like Epistane that bind to ER beta could potentially increase the risk for prostate cancer. If you want something that is safe and mildly effective, I would recommend 11 Spray + Activate XT.

    Read the information below.

    Estrogen receptor beta (ERbeta) plays a protective role against uncontrolled cell proliferation. ERbeta is lost during prostate cancer (CaP) progression suggesting its direct involvement in contrasting tumor proliferation in this disease; however, the molecular mechanism at the basis of this effect has not been clearly defined yet. Possible molecular targets of ERbeta were assessed in DU145 cells, a CaP cell line expressing only ERbeta. Cells treated from 1 to 9 days with different doses of estradiol or diarylpropionitrile (DPN, an ERbeta-selective agonist) show a time-dependent decrease in cell proliferation. The reduced proliferation rate is accompanied by the stimulation of ERbeta expression and the increase of cyclin-dependent kinase inhibitor p21. We demonstrate that the endogenous ERbeta is one of the mediator of the antiproliferative action of estrogens enhancing the synthesis of molecules such as p21 that control cell cycle, an effect amplified by the autoregulation of ERbeta expression. Our observations suggest that CaP, when expressing a functional ERbeta, might be sensitive to the antiproliferative action of estrogens; therefore, ERbeta specific agonists might be valid candidates for new pharmacological approaches to this disease.or beta polymorphism is associated with prostate cancer risk.

    Thellenberg-Karlsson C, Lindström S, Malmer B, Wiklund F, Augustsson-Bälter K, Adami HO, Stattin P, Nilsson M, Dahlman-Wright K, Gustafsson JA, Grönberg H.

    Department of Radiation Sciences/Oncology, University of Umeå, Umeå, Sweden.

    Abstract
    PURPOSE: After cloning of the second estrogen receptor, estrogen receptor beta (ERbeta) in 1996, increasing evidence of its importance in prostate cancer development has been obtained. ERbeta is thought to exert an antiproliferative and proapoptotic effect. We examined whether sequence variants in the ERbeta gene are associated with prostate cancer risk. EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN: We conducted a large population-based case-control study (CAncer Prostate in Sweden, CAPS) consisting of 1,415 incident cases of prostate cancer and 801 controls. We evaluated 28 single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNP) spanning the entire ERbeta gene from the promoter to the 3'-untranslated region in 94 subjects of the control group. From this, we constructed gene-specific haplotypes and selected four haplotype-tagging SNPs (htSNP: rs2987983, rs1887994, rs1256040, and rs1256062). These four htSNPs were then genotyped in the total study population of 2,216 subjects. RESULTS: There was a statistically significant difference in allele frequency between cases and controls for one of the typed htSNPs (rs2987983), 27% in cases and 24% in controls (P = 0.03). Unconditional logistics regression showed an odds ratio of 1.22 (95% confidence interval, 1.02-1.46) for men carrying the variant allele TC or CC versus the wild-type TT, and an odds ratio of 1.33 (95% confidence interval, 1.08-1.64) for localized cancer. No association of prostate cancer risk with any of the other SNPs or with any haplotypes were seen. CONCLUSION: We found an association with a SNP located in the promoter region of the ERbeta gene and risk of developing prostate cancer. The biological significance of this finding is unclear, but it supports the hypothesis that sequence variation in the promoter region of ERbeta is of importance for risk of prostate cancer.

    06-27-2010, 06:17 PM #2


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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There are two estrogen receptors in this model:

    ER-alpha: accelerates prostate cancer

    ER-beta: puts the brakes on prostate cancer.
    It is believed that ER-alpha and ER-beta have a relationship to TMPRSS2-ERG gene fusions. These gene fusions are associated with more aggressive cancers and future diagnostics may use their presence as a marker to distinguish between indolent and aggressive prostate cancer. Also see [PMID: 18505969]

    Example: Toremifene. Toremifene is in a class of drug known as a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM). Low doses of toremifene act again ER-alpha and to a much lesser extent against ER-beta. Since ER-alpha accelerates the cancer the effect of toremifene is anti-cancer; however, at higher doses toremifene acts against not only ER-alpha but also against ER-beta so at these higher doses the ER-beta no longer counteracts the ER-alpha and so is no longer effective. This gives it an inverse dose response curve: i.e. toremifene is effective at lower dosages where it only knocks out ER-alpha but at higher dosages it is less effective or ineffective since it starts blocking the beneficial ER-beta as well.
    Example: phytoestrogens. Phytoestrogens have an anti-cancer effect via a pathway outside the scope of this model; however, they also bind to ER-beta which could have the effect of disabling ER-beta's moderating influence on prostate cancer and encouraging the formation of bcl-2, a protein which protects cancer cells. Particularly problematic might be if the patient simultaneously increased bcl-2 from multiple sources such as by consuming high amounts of phytoestrogens such as soy and at the same time generated even more bcl-2 by taking 5AR drugs or natural 5AR inhibitors such as saw palmetto and its key ingredient beta sitosterol or with white button mushrooms. See Ed Friedman's comments and more comments. "Green tea catechin (-)-epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) is a natural AR5 inhibitor. Flavonoids that were potent inhibitors of the type 1 5alpha-reductase include myricetin, quercitin, baicalein, and fisetin. Biochanin A, daidzein, genistein, and kaempferol were much better inhibitors of the type 2 than the type 1 isozyme. Several other natural and synthetic polyphenolic compounds were more effective inhibitors of the type 1 than the type 2 isozyme, including alizarin, anthrarobin, gossypol, nordihydroguaiaretic acid, caffeic acid phenethyl ester, and octyl and dodecyl gallates." (quotes from [PMID: 11931850])

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by pdelta; 06-27-2010 at 06:21 PM.
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    Wow, BBB. That's a lot of scientific jargon to wade through!

    Thanks for posting it, though. Seems like Epi may increase one's risk of prostate cancer, from what I can gather.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGA3 View Post
    Wow, BBB. That's a lot of scientific jargon to wade through!

    Thanks for posting it, though. Seems like Epi may increase one's risk of prostate cancer, from what I can gather.
    However, I am wondering if this applies to a person of any age using Epi, or just one of "advanced" years?
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    Try the osta-sarm stacked with some good growth hormone.
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    For something that's supposed to be a suicidal inhibitor of estrogen, Epistane raised my E2 significantly, proven by labs I had taken while on it. It also causes some bad sides at higher doses (acne, lethargy, no libido).

    Test is best, imo.
  

  
 

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