Peeling myself off TRT after 18 months....

[EasyEJL]

Well, my annual bloods were bad enough overall that my GP asked me to go off TRT for at least the next 3 months. She'll be monitoring me with full blood panels at 1 month and 3 months. My PSA was high, cholesterol totally fubar, a few other values off as well.

So I suppose i'm doing a more or less "normal" but short (2-3 week) PCT and then i'm going to go on a combination of the EST Propadrol EP D-aspartic acid product, as well as Applied Nutriceutical's HGHUp and Free Test.

After 3 months, the idea is that rather than working with an anti-aging clinic for TRT i'll work with a local urologist. or if levels are good I may just stick with the herbals.

 

[Dutchman]

Sorry to hear about your problem. I have always battled high PSA because of lifelong BPH. As a result there are a couple things I use which have helped a lot.

First to assure that I do not have nor develop any prostate cancer I used to take 10,000 IUs of Vitamin D3 daily but this year I am up to 15,000.

Second to control my PSA there are many natural supplements available but I prefer two, Beta-Sitosterol and Stinging Nettle. The reasoning is:
"Beta Sitosterol inhibits the action of the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase, which converts testosterone into DHT. DHT is one of the main contributing factors to BPH. The prostate of an older man has up to 4 times higher DHT concentration than that of a younger man. In addition, beta sitosterol also inhibits the enzyme aromatase, which facilitates the production of estradiol. Estradiol levels invariably increase with age. This is considered to be another important factor in the development of BPH."
For the Stinging Nettles, I like its ability to lower PSA while controlling my SHBG.
The side effect of taking these two supps is that they inversely increase my test as they control my Estrogen.

You might look into the same supps for the same two reasons. Viel Glueck!

 

[kingdong]

Were you ever officially under the healthy range of test, or did you just whant more? Was your low test a side affect of a cycle of something?

 

[tuberman]

Sorry to hear about your problem. I have always battled high PSA because of lifelong BPH. As a result there are a couple things I use which have helped a lot.

First to assure that I do not have nor develop any prostate cancer I used to take 10,000 IUs of Vitamin D3 daily but this year I am up to 15,000.

Second to control my PSA there are many natural supplements available but I prefer two, Beta-Sitosterol and Stinging Nettle. The reasoning is:
"Beta Sitosterol inhibits the action of the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase, which converts testosterone into DHT. DHT is one of the main contributing factors to BPH. The prostate of an older man has up to 4 times higher DHT concentration than that of a younger man. In addition, beta sitosterol also inhibits the enzyme aromatase, which facilitates the production of estradiol. Estradiol levels invariably increase with age. This is considered to be another important factor in the development of BPH."
For the Stinging Nettles, I like its ability to lower PSA while controlling my SHBG.
The side effect of taking these two supps is that they inversely increase my test as they control my Estrogen.

You might look into the same supps for the same two reasons. Viel Glueck!

Dutch,

I like and use two of the three supplements you mentioned as I also have long had BPH. I take D3 and stinging nettle, but I'm not in agreement about Beta-Sitosterol as I've sometimes read a cardiologist website who has found a strong corrolation between Beta-Sitosterol supplementation and an increase in artery plaque growth. Yes, it does lower LDL, but the site is built on heart scans and the actual tracking of plaque growth (or occational decline). This cardiologist has a remarkable record for keeping his people heart attack and negative incident free. He is of course pro-active and uses supplements with his patients.

Some other great supplements to lower PSA are Curcumin, I3C, and Zinc. Curcumin lowers NF kappaB inflamation which is another approach to protecting the prostate gland.

 

[EasyEJL]

Were you ever officially under the healthy range of test, or did you just whant more? Was your low test a side affect of a cycle of something?

I didn't touch any anabolics till I was 39, I had been diagnosed with low or borderline low T since I was 35 (which was the first year I was tested). On the 270-1200 scale, I came in regularly between 250-280.

 

[kingdong]

I didn't touch any anabolics till I was 39, I had been diagnosed with low or borderline low T since I was 35 (which was the first year I was tested). On the 270-1200 scale, I came in regularly between 250-280.

Hm.. The fact that you were waiving back and fourth from being in the healthy range tells me natural products should do you some good, but at the same time, who knows how youll recover from these 18 months. Add the fact that you arn't as young as you used to be, and once again, who knows.

DAA doesn't really have a lot of research on it, health wise, so be careful. Ive also heard that taking things to free up test can mess with your bodies return to equilibrium after a cycle, so you might wanna wait a while on the free test too. How did you take your test before? Injection seems to be the safest. If al else fails, maby not all people are meant to have high test?

 

[tuberman]

I didn't touch any anabolics till I was 39, I had been diagnosed with low or borderline low T since I was 35 (which was the first year I was tested). On the 270-1200 scale, I came in regularly between 250-280.

Easy,

What was your diet like some years back? Many of us kept fats, and especially saturated fats quite low as it was conventional wisdom then that that low fat was healthy and a good method for helping weight control. It's a disaster for test levels.

 

[kingdong]

Easy,

What was your diet like some years back? Many of us kept fats, and especially saturated fats quite low as ir was conventional wisdom then that that low fat was healthy and a good method for helping wieght control. It's a disaster for test levels.

And how are your zinc levels?

 

[Gutterpump]

Taking a break from cycling, and taking only ~100-120mg test per week and you should return to the normal ranges. The clinic you were with prescribes too high of a dose of everything, this is likely why your #'s are skewed.

 

[SouthernCharm]

i missed this thread, Easy. How are you doing as of today? I'm very interested in seeing your progress so far.

 

[EasyEJL]

Zinc levels weren't tested, I didn't eat particularly low fat either. So far its going well, there's a link to me logging it in my signature.

 

[osubaka]

how much test were you taking?

 

[EasyEJL]

I was prescribed at 300mg test cyp a week, .5mg arimidex EOD, 500iu HCG 2x a week

 

[Gutterpump]

That's exactly what they prescribed me as well. Keep in mind, they are basically a Barry Bonds type clinic and do not practice normal TRT. I'm in the process of switching in the next couple months.

I had to lower my dose to less than 200mg per week in order to get my own numbers in a good range, for long term sustainable treatment. Anything greater than 200mg, over the longterm, is asking for trouble with lipids, BP, etc etc... Especially since you need more AI at these dosages. I think you would have been fine lowering the dose on your own instead of completely coming off. Your test levels were probably double the range and the body will not stay in homeostasis at this level over time. Things start to become problematic.

 

[kingdong]

That's exactly what they prescribed me as well. Keep in mind, they are basically a Barry Bonds type clinic and do not practice normal TRT. I'm in the process of switching in the next couple months.

I had to lower my dose to less than 200mg per week in order to get my own numbers in a good range, for long term sustainable treatment. Anything greater than 200mg, over the longterm, is asking for trouble with lipids, BP, etc etc... Especially since you need more AI at these dosages. I think you would have been fine lowering the dose on your own instead of completely coming off. Your test levels were probably double the range and the body will not stay in homeostasis at this level over time. Things start to become problematic.

im not a steroid user, but from what I know, it really dose sound like this guys side effects came from beeing full out roided.

 

[EasyEJL]

I had actually already dropped to 200mg, and not been using arimidex at all...

Mostly the problem came from taking an oral (methyl sten), right before I had to take the blood test.... I had not been paying attention and my insurance requires annual bloodwork by june 30 every year. I started an oral cycle and was a week in when I got the "final notice" letter from the insurance company. They drop you the following year if you don't comply, so I had to get it done. I have my 30 day followup bloodwork being done next monday (aug 2nd) so all the things that were negative should be fine then.

 

[Whacked]

SUBB'd.

Im in a very similar predicament!

Good luck Easy EJL

 

[Gutterpump]

Ahh that sucks then... bad timing.

Well hopefully your doc will start you back on TRT in time, and will have it covered by insurance. I'm getting tired of paying out of pocket for this clinic. Gets pricey after a while.

 

[EasyEJL]

Ahh that sucks then... bad timing.

Well hopefully your doc will start you back on TRT in time, and will have it covered by insurance. I'm getting tired of paying out of pocket for this clinic. Gets pricey after a while.

well, she won't directly I don't think. I know that the urologist who did my vasectomy does it, in office injections around 125mg/wk if I recall right. Still then it would likely be $30/wk copay, so no cheaper really. I need to find someone local who will just write a scrip at that dosage, because my copay on a 10ml vial is $10.... and thats 7 weeks worth.

 

[superone]

So are you guys saying 200mg per week is the highest you should go for TRT that wont cause long term problems? I know this will put you above normal range, but I see it as an advantage in this world and if this amount doesn't produce super super high levels and is safe long term, then why not as long as you have E and DHT under control? You could always donate blood every 2 months which is supposed to be a good thing to do anyways to get some old blood out of your system, eat a good diet with lots of organic raw fruits and vegetables, superfoods,ect. Or is this not safe?

 

[Gutterpump]

Anything over the normal levels will cause problems over time. You can not escape the reverse feedback loop, and something will suffer because of it.

I'm on 200mg week equivalent of t-gel, 500iu hcg 2x per week and this puts me over 1500 total T. My dht is also triple the upper limit. I have to lower my T-levels since I'm having e2 issues at this level, among other things. It's best to find homeostasis when looking at the long haul, otherwise you're asking for a rollercoaster ride and many issues. Taking more drugs to balance these issues is not a solution either. Everything you put into your body has an effect / side effect.

 

[tuberman]

You can not escape the reverse feedback loop, and something will suffer because of it.

It's best to find homeostasis when looking at the long haul, otherwise you're asking for a rollercoaster ride and many issues. Taking more drugs to balance these issues is not a solution either. Everything you put into your body has an effect / side effect.

I wish that most docs knew this simple fact today. They usually believe that homeostasis is an outmoded concept, if they think on it at all. They try to fix the "numbers" (their god) with more scripts.

 

[superone]

Anything over the normal levels will cause problems over time. You can not escape the reverse feedback loop, and something will suffer because of it.

I'm on 200mg week equivalent of t-gel, 500iu hcg 2x per week and this puts me over 1500 total T. My dht is also triple the upper limit. I have to lower my T-levels since I'm having e2 issues at this level, among other things. It's best to find homeostasis when looking at the long haul, otherwise you're asking for a rollercoaster ride and many issues. Taking more drugs to balance these issues is not a solution either. Everything you put into your body has an effect / side effect.

Understood, thanks. I guess what they say normal range is, differs for everybody. Maybe some people feel better with levels above the normal range if there estrogen stays in a normal range. Though it seems 150mg per week of Test would be more realistic and safe longterm. I guess whatever you feel better on and if your lipids,ect, are good,ect.


I personally am going to use Propecia for hairloss anyways, so if I were to use low dose Test to bring my levels up, I would also be on a low dose AI, so most of my Test would stay Test and should cause less problems no?

 

[EasyEJL]

Another issue is screw total test, Free Test is all that counts. I'd rather have total test of 500 and high end free test, than have total test of 1100 and low free test. So theres that to consider as well.

 

[superone]

Another issue is screw total test, Free Test is all that counts. I'd rather have total test of 500 and high end free test, than have total test of 1100 and low free test. So theres that to consider as well.

Agreed, is the best non prescription thing to lower SHBG Divanex? That nettle extract?

 

[EasyEJL]

Yep, works really well. So i'd rather do 100mg a week plus divanex, than 150 a week without

 

[superone]

Yep, works really well. So i'd rather do 100mg a week plus divanex, than 150 a week without

Totally agree, I have the divanex from NP, how much would you take per day? Would you just dose it like it says on the bottle?

 

[EasyEJL]

just the way it says on the bottle should work. The other option (not that I recommend this necessarily) is to take 50mg/day of winny orally 3 days in a row every 2 weeks. it provides some decent SHBG reduction that way, but not significant liver or lipid hit.

 

[superone]

just the way it says on the bottle should work. The other option (not that I recommend this necessarily) is to take 50mg/day of winny orally 3 days in a row every 2 weeks. it provides some decent SHBG reduction that way, but not significant liver or lipid hit.

Cool bro, thanks for the help. I wish I could touch winny but it would make me lose hair.

 

[tuberman]

just the way it says on the bottle should work. The other option (not that I recommend this necessarily) is to take 50mg/day of winny orally 3 days in a row every 2 weeks. it provides some decent SHBG reduction that way, but not significant liver or lipid hit.

Easy,

Does testofen help to free test or does it work another way? A mimic of test perhaps? Never really understood this one.

I have another bottle of divanex on the way myself.

 

[EasyEJL]

Easy,

Does testofen help to free test or does it work another way? A mimic of test perhaps? Never really understood this one.

I have another bottle of divanex on the way myself.

Hmm I'll have to look around. I kind of remember it having an LH stimulation, as well as something else.

 

[Jasen]

wiat this is will a dumb question, but how are ur levels out of whack? i was under suspision that test has relatively no sides?

 

[EasyEJL]

wiat this is will a dumb question, but how are ur levels out of whack? i was under suspision that test has relatively no sides?

Well, my total test was right at top of range, and with shbg bein roughly 0 free test was 2x top of range But also my PSA was over top of range showing potential for prostate issues, and taking the arimidex long term (plus other orals) whacked out my cholesterol. It was mostly about the cholesterol, the doctor would probably have let the rest pass. Although she was freaked a little on the total test.

 

[Gutterpump]

How's it going with the restart? If I were you, since you were on for so long (over a year), I would follow swale's protocol followed by a couple months of low dose clomid (50mg). Best chance at getting natural levels back.

 

[EasyEJL]

we'll see in a day or two as I had blood drawn yesterday. My libido is down some, but not nonexistent. and up till thursday last week when I tore or sprained a hamstring or glute my strength was amazingly still stable to slightly up. No serms, no hcg, just the drive/HGHUp/Free Test combo.

 

[Jasen]

Oh so if you just ran test at her doc s dose chances are you would not be so messed up.

 

[EasyEJL]

well, the PSA would likely still have been somewhat high, and even with just test + arimidex to control estrogen the cholesterol could have been bad too, just not as bad

 

[Jasen]

But how can test at 200a week cause estrogen problem so big you have to use arima? I thought at that dose estrogen should not be problem

 

[EasyEJL]

its all individual. When my total test was at 275, my estrogen was still at 63 (this is pre any anabolics). So test was just at bottom of range, estro over top of normal. Any increase in test would bring an increase in estrogen with it.

 

[Jasen]

Well played. I know myself I was fine at 500. Even700. At 1000 it hit me water bloat etcetc

 

[EasyEJL]

I actually had an end of cycle blood test, where I was running 150mg halo, plus Icon, plus something else I don't even remember (11-oxo transdermal maybe?) for 6 weeks. Total test was 22, LH+FSH were non-measurable. Estrogen was still 36.

 

[Gutterpump]

Easy, curious.. how has your DHT been on test-cyp in the past?

I was still low end of range on DHT when on cyp, and had to switch to gel to get the numbers up. DHT is now great and I don't use much adex anymore after lowering from 20% to 10% gel + hcg.

 

[EasyEJL]

DHT has never been tested. I've been working with total goddamn amateurs.

 

[Gutterpump]

Yeah I had that problem too. I had to practically beg anyone I had drawing blood to test DHT. It wasn't until my 2nd year working with these docs that they finally started testing DHT, once I was on test, and that took a couple tries even.

I've seen a uro here in nyc a couple times, and started talking about e2, etc and he couldn't even hold a convo with me about e2 issues, told me to speak to my endo about it..even though he has TRT patients. Bizarre.

 

[EasyEJL]

it is sad how many of us have more knowledge about this particular issue than the doctors who are treating people for it

 

[ceo]

Agreed, is the best non prescription thing to lower SHBG Divanex? That nettle extract?

I'm not familiar with that particular product, but nettle root extract can be found very cheaply.

The other thing is, Urtica Dioica is nettle root. 3,4 Divanillyltetrahydrofuran is a specific lignan of nettle root. Specifically, it is that lignan of nettle root that has the highest binding affinity to SHBG.

With, say 100mg of Urtica Dioica, you aren't sure how much 3,4 Divanillyltetrahydrofuran you are getting along with (+)-neoolivil, (-)-secoisolariciresinol, dehydrodiconiferyl alcohol, isolariciresinol, and pinoresinol.

www[dot]ncbi[dot]nlm[dot]nih[dot]gov/pubmed/9434605?dopt=Abstract

(won't let me post links yet, lol!)

Find a supp with the specific lignan extract of 3,4 Divanillyltetrahydrofuran. I know of at least one good one that I have been taking a little less than half of the recommended dose for several months now (and nothing else of that kind to lower SHBG), and my SHBG was 16 in a range of 11-80 nmol/L.

Pretty damn effective I'd say. The supp also has other items in it (test boosters, etc.).

 

[Jasen]

I'm not familiar with that particular product, but nettle root extract can be found very cheaply.

The other thing is, Urtica Dioica is nettle root. 3,4 Divanillyltetrahydrofuran is a specific lignan of nettle root. Specifically, it is that lignan of nettle root that has the highest binding affinity to SHBG.

With, say 100mg of Urtica Dioica, you aren't sure how much 3,4 Divanillyltetrahydrofuran you are getting along with (+)-neoolivil, (-)-secoisolariciresinol, dehydrodiconiferyl alcohol, isolariciresinol, and pinoresinol.

www[dot]ncbi[dot]nlm[dot]nih[dot]gov/pubmed/9434605?dopt=Abstract

(won't let me post links yet, lol!)

Find a supp with the specific lignan extract of 3,4 Divanillyltetrahydrofuran. I know of at least one good one that I have been taking a little less than half of the recommended dose for several months now (and nothing else of that kind to lower SHBG), and my SHBG was 16 in a range of 11-80 nmol/L.

Pretty damn effective I'd say. The supp also has other items in it (test boosters, etc.).

Well what is it

 

[ceo]

Well what is it

HCGenerate by needtobuildmuscle

 

[Jasen]

Maybe soon there might be a need2build log from me commin u great alot of good stuff from them

 

[learn]

any updates bro?

hope all is going well