I'm only 22.. HRT, I'm on the fence..
- 08-22-2009, 12:58 PM
I'm only 22.. HRT, I'm on the fence..
Alright so, some background history, I had thyroid problems as a kid because I wasn't growing (could be related to the fact that I was born almost a month early), went off the thyroid meds at around 14yrs old (my mom said I decided that I wanted to stop taking them lol, I don't even remember). Thus, I went to my old thyroid doctor last week to get checked and he said I was normal. Anyway, it seems like since around 17/18, I have been noticing mood swings, mixed feelings of anxiety/depression, I am pretty much always tired/ready to goto sleep (except for once I finally lay down to sleep at night, it takes me a little while). With girls in the past, I have always noticed an issue with my manhood, always thought it was because I was drinking, but then I noticed it was still happening when I wasn't drinking (btw, I haven't drank in years now). When I'm with a girl, it's like, maybe I will actually reach my full potential for like a minute or 2, and then it goes away. I'm always half assing it.. it's like, I might get up there, and then if my concentration breaks, I have to start all over. I have to concentrate so damn hard during sex. Also, I barely ever wake up with morning wood.. come on now, I'm only 22 yrs old. Also, for the past few years I have noticed an issue with brain fog, especially short term memory problems, ****ty drive in the gym, ****ty focus, etc. Anyway, so I got my test levels checked, they were at 400. My doctor was telling me how with kids my age it should be at it's peak (800-1200). If I'm at 400 in the AM, that means I'm even lower in the PM. This is where I am on the fence.. He will treat me.. but if I go on HRT, is it gonna do more worse than good? I mean, in regards to my natty test level, HPTA/fertility, etc. Can the HRT be cycled? Does it really have to be life long? I have tried researching HCG, and other options. Can't my test just be raised without having to worry about shut down? Sorry if that's a dumb question, but I know a lot of you have asked the same thing(s). That being said, I feel like I've aged 15yrs in the last 5yrs, I want to feel my age, not like I'm getting older and getting slower. I just don't want to have to worry about estro problems (what should I mention for AI?), HPTA shutdown/losing my ability to keep my natty test level, testicular atrophy, infertility, etc.
Sorry for ranting, this is just a really big ****ing deal and I don't want to blow it. I have a 2nd blood test monday morning at 7am.
- 08-22-2009, 01:00 PM
have you discussed hCG monotherapy and clomid?
ask about them see what he says.
i would hate to see you on HRT so early
- 08-22-2009, 01:07 PM
08-22-2009, 05:29 PM
08-22-2009, 10:05 PM
08-23-2009, 09:49 PM
08-24-2009, 09:01 AM
Anyway, I just had my blood drawn, will be interesting to hear the results. I will post them accordingly.
09-01-2009, 08:14 PM
Ok, I finally got my results, and my doctor said I'm "fine" .. even though I am still experiencing the same feelings as before. This last blood test was taken at 7am .. it looks like my total test went up a little bit, but I believe everything is still on the low side, ESPECIALLY free test.. Thoughts/Suggestions/anything.. please, thank you.
Rsl: 44, Unit nmol/L
(Reference range: 11 to 80)
Rsl: 563, Unit: ng/dL
(Reference range: 400 to 1080)
Rsl: 261.4, Unit: ng/dL
(Reference range: 130.0 to 680.0)
Testosterone, Free, CA
Rsl: 89.9, Unit: pg/mL
(Reference range: 47.0 to 244.0)
Rsl: 4.7, Unit: pg/mL
Males: (18-60yrs.old) = 6.2-28.1 pg/mL
Female: (18-60yrs.old) = 1.2-6.6 pg/mL
09-02-2009, 04:52 PM
im in the SAME but worse situation according the blood tests.
I'm 20. My sex drive is pretty high, but I don't have good energy, have to work HARD on getting bigger, and I dont sleep well. On top of that, I have mood swings randomly, and a poor outlook on life from what I used to feel like when I was 15.
My total T hovers around 300ng/dl. My SHBG is 15. My Free T is at the rock bottom of the range. The only reason I think I look good and have a normal sex drive is because my Estradiol is also EXTREMELY low...12 last time I had it test.
I have a Grade III varicocele of the left testicle and a sperm count less than 4million/ml. I think the varicocele is causing lower T and infertility. Im currently under care by Dr. C...he had me one a 10 week clomiphene citrate restart that boosted me to 500's. I felt way better, but its still only mid-way to what our age should be. I await my final blood test now, OFF clomid, to see what my T has returned too, before pursing TRT with Dr. C.
I'm on the same fence as you....the range is 250-1200. Anywhere on the range is considered "normal". Therefore, its a guilty feeling to be on TRT if you are physically healthy and within range. Testosterone is very subjective in my opinion...I mean you can take someone with 1200 levels and give them 750mg/test-E and they'll feel "better". Any added testosterone will make you feel better. You will become hornier, stronger, and have a more alpha mentality/improved well-being. Medicine CANNOT define at what point those feelings should be attributed as normal for you. Theres no range for how much testosterone you should have to have an adaquate sex drive that pleases you. Every doc i've seen besides C has strongly agreed that 300's is NORMAL and because I feel okay, to "treat the patient, not the blood work". They want to prescribe sleeping pills and anxiety meds. However, I feel like I've been at a low T level for so long, that my body has adjusted to deal with the lack thereof. I believe the whole extremely broad range is bullsh*t.
The downsides to TRT for our age is the infertility and hassle. However, I plan on trying TRT and seeing if the additional testosterone really helps me feel any improved. If its not significant, its not like I signed a dotted line stating I can never come off.
The infertitlity side is always scary, but there are sperm banks that cost about 300/dollars a year. Once you have the fertility figured out, TRT could really be something awesome.
Good luck to you man.
If you decide to try it out, make sure your doc knows what he's doing. Shoot at least once a week if your are injecting. Use arimidex if estradiol is higher than mid 20's. HCG 3x week to preserve testicular size/function. Then "backfill" pathways with DHEA, pregnenolone, etc...
09-02-2009, 09:37 PM
I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
09-03-2009, 12:24 AM
Low LH, and with boosted LH from clomid for 3 months the numbers dont rise much, which means testicular dysfunction as well. Probably attributed to the large varicocele.
Jumping on TRT is not premature. I've exhausted all methods possible besides HCG monotherapy. I've looked at diet, stress, sleep patterns. I've checked for sleep apnea. I've had thyroid panel etc...its low because its low.
Its not like I could just take some DTHC and sleep better/eat better and some ZMA at night and have 800 level T.
Seems to me, at this point, instead of wasting more time and money, I should get on testosterone injections for a month or two and see if I feel any significant changes. If not, then so be it, it might not be what its worth.
09-03-2009, 03:11 PM
Ok, so according to my blood results, my free test level is very low.. Looking back over my blood work from the beginning of the year, when I ran a PH, my post-cycle SHBG level was 7, a week later it was 22, and now (months later) it is 44. My total test level stayed around the same range (500) the whole time (supposedly), but as for my free test level, that raises some questions.. On cycle, I felt GREAT (mentally, physically, strength/mass gains, concentration, confidence, etc).. Since my post cycle blood work showed my SHBG level at 7, wouldn't that mean my free test level should have been significantly elevated at that time? Unfortunately the doctor 'messed up' and couldn't get the test readings from that blood work, so I'll never know for sure.
So that would mean, my total test level has been around the same this whole time, but perhaps my free test level has just dropped over time (due to who knows, a rise in estradiol, shbg, cortisol, etc). Therefore, the rise in free test would have been what made me feel ‘normal.’ And yea, I know, things are mental, but I am very good at distinguishing between something that’s working and something that isn’t.
09-03-2009, 05:23 PM
SERMS will raise SHBG, AI's will lower SHBG. Aside from that, 44 is pretty high, and yes thats why you have low free T. You need to check estradiol (senstative or ulta-sensative) this could be higher causing the high SHBG. When was your cycle?
09-03-2009, 05:33 PM
09-03-2009, 05:44 PM
In medicine, low-T is determined according to Free-T. Some people do have very high SHBG, even higher than yours. They can have perfectly functioning testicles, perfectly high T levels...even much higher than yours, and still feel like crap because of the high SHBG and they require much larger amounts of TRT. I guess get down to figuring out why your SHBG is so high...once you solve this you will unlock a bunch of T.
Something odd: my father had Total T in the 400's and High E, but lower SHBG...he got on TRT and his total T raised to 900 but his SHBG also went up incredibly high...haven't figured out what caused it yet, because his estradiol stayed the same. Thinking its related to his thyroid medicine.
09-03-2009, 05:52 PM
I'm wondering about some sort of Chrysin, Divanil/Icarrin, Reversitol and ZINC combination.
And this is where I am kinda sitting on the fence still.. I can try to do this the natural route, or just go through w/ the doc, trying to get him to fix it.. frustrating.
09-03-2009, 06:06 PM
09-03-2009, 06:13 PM
09-04-2009, 04:54 AM
I am in your shoes. I went to Dr. Crisler for help. Flight to michigan for a consulation and then appointments over the phone. Every other doctors I've been too doesn't know crap...they will just say "well all of your hormones are above the bottom of the range so we cant help you"
I know how you feel. I'm awake right now because I don't sleep anymore after stopping clomid.
If you don't feel normal, do whatever it takes to get right. Don't let ANYONE tell you that you are perfectly normal because your numbers check out. Although low-T feelings aren't life-or-death, they still make getting through each day alot tougher. It just makes life a true grind in general...I'd say instead of medicating yourself its time to see a professional.
09-04-2009, 01:37 PM
09-04-2009, 02:26 PM
My doc doesn't take insurance, BUT, my insurance company covers the drugs that my doc will prescribe. So, I won't have coverage for office vists, but insurance covers my lab work and will cover testosterone etc.
Dr. C charges $600 1 time consulatation and then 65 dollars over-the-phone office follow up appointment. Copies of lab works etc are like 5 bucks. I can't say if its worth it or yet, but I should be on TRT soon or some plan of action. So far Iv spent for the consultation and 1 follow up....I should only need 1 to 3 more follow ups. Bottom line is I'm paying around 1000 for the doctor and insurance is covering the drugs.
You need to at least have a doctor tell you what needs to be done...have him prescribe you etc. Then you can leave his practice if you want to order all the stuff on your own and self-medicate. However, I recommend professional opinion first.
09-04-2009, 02:55 PM
09-04-2009, 02:59 PM
Don't you just love life sometimes, lol
09-04-2009, 06:46 PM
well...if you want to waste more years of your young life with low libido and energy.
IMO, nothing matter more than your health/well-being. Your body is the only thing that you actually own. Don't you want it to perform correctly asap? More power to you if you can hold off until after your get a job...I can't even wait another week.
If you wanted to avoid problems with medical records, you could order the stuff overseas and do it all yourself off the books...yes this is illegal and goes against law enforcement lol.
09-04-2009, 07:26 PM
Stuck inn a rutttttt.. hah.. Well, I have a lot of thinking to do.. Ugh
09-04-2009, 08:54 PM
09-04-2009, 11:54 PM
09-05-2009, 10:55 AM
Like I said my father had estrogen pathway problems with Total T at 1200 and Free Test only mid range on TRT. His estradiol was in the 50's and he had no bloat/gyno. SHBG was 42. I told him to try formex, because the doc wouldn't prescribe A-dex. He was very skeptical, however after 2 weeks, he claims he feels like the "on-switch" flipped...no labs yet, but I'm assuming the SHBG and Estradiol went down significantly which shot the T way up.
09-05-2009, 03:02 PM
09-05-2009, 03:08 PM
09-05-2009, 09:23 PM
09-06-2009, 09:02 PM
To the OP and monster...I think you should look at other things in your life, like stress and diet. Diet is huge. On davedraper.com's forums and wiki, a guy who recommends lifestyle changes over TRT has written a lot about this. Having T in the 500ng/ml range is definitely not going to make you depressed, etc, etc, and those sound like separate issues. As for you monster...dude, are you sure you aren't just kind of compulsive to some extent? I can be that way. Last time I read something you wrote it was basically "I gotta have that ON feeling, I want to try some real roids." I know what you mean, but are you sure you don't just miss that feeling and want to try TRT/HRT for that reason?
I mean do what you want...but, I hope someone who reads this thread doesn't jump to the conclusion that TRT at 19-22 is a good idea just because a couple guys were discussing it.
09-07-2009, 12:36 PM
You might have a point, as there might not be a big difference in life between my levels now and TRT. However, I do know that my father began TRT in the 400's, feeling stubborn about it and "fine, I don't need that stuff". Now thats hes on it, hes a completely changed man. He didn't know how much different he could feel.
So, I'm not looking at TRT to have muscle growth/strength, its not going to work that way. It takes upwards of 300mg+/week of test to actually consider as a steroid cycle. I'm in search of better well-being, mood, outlook, energy, and libido because it feels like things are alot more flat, uninteresting, and negative to me than my mid-teen years.
As far as the compulisve part, I do believe I'm a little compulsive about being unsatisfied w/ blood tests in the 300ng/dl and super low free-T. Its really kills your moral/motivation to know that you are on the very rock bottom end of the medical range that matter alot in life AND in the sport that you enjoy.
09-08-2009, 05:27 PM
Good to see you looking at it from both angles. Best of luck.
09-12-2009, 11:19 AM
like i have said before. TRT doesnt have to be FOREVR. give it a shot for 4-6 monhts, then talk with your doc about establishing a baseline after you come off (with proper meds). these meds can be found in the form of research chemicals as well. come off, do a blood test 6 weeks after your PCT and then see what your test level is. I am going to be doing this soon. keep in mind im also 26. ive heard lots of people saying the test kick started them, and they didnt need to go back on. worth a shot. its not the end of the world to test out TRT, just my opinion.
09-12-2009, 11:40 AM
I certainly believe in your opinion about trying it out. Theres no harm besides a rough PCT if you use test for 4-6months. A "trial" run seems absolutely senseful. I don't know why everyone acts like theres a contract to sign for the rest of your life. Plus, people act like TRT is going to make you feel god-like and addicted, and its not necessary at the young age because you won't want to go back. What they don't realize is, if you have correct T levels at a young age, TRT won't make you feel any different...maybe worse! The dosages are SO low compared to steroid cycle. Conversely, if your baseline is below average, you may feel god-like on TRT for sometime because you've never felt that great in your life. Correct me if I'm wrong?
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